Militia needs scopes

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ComradeHX
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Re: Militia needs scopes

Post by ComradeHX »

Murphy wrote:On an infantry level it was exactly like Russia and you have to be delusional to not realize that. The model of optics doesn't matter, you're struggling to stay relevant here.
You are struggling to put out correct statements here.

Russia does not use AK47; Russia has zoomed PKM(waiting on replacement); Russia has rangefinder; Russia has actually decent camouflage.

Militia has a huge variety(comparatively) of small arms to choose from; they even have grenade traps...etc. that Russians do not(although they should; making grenade trap with RGD-5 or F1 is covered in training).
Some of those small arms do not even have the option of attaching a scope.

What I really want to see is actually a scoped SKS(SVD scopes fit onto SKS just fine but never happened in PR for some reason). It could be a compromise to this situation; give rifleman(LAT too) option of AK47 or SKS(scoped) instead of AK74(which has an incorrect model at the moment and can be totally thrown into the garbage bin). SKS is just 10 rounds of semi-auto anyway.

The model of optics does matter; otherwise why not give Russians nasty-looking ACOGs?

Let me put it this way:
Why would there be USMC and USArmy? On the infantry level(even the voice files and weapon stats) they are exactly the same except their guns' stock/frontend and camouflage/gears are a little different(ALOT less than the difference between Russians and Militia). What is this, U.S. bias??? I thought I am in PR forum, not FH2 forum...
Last edited by ComradeHX on 2012-04-24 03:49, edited 8 times in total.
ShockUnitBlack
Posts: 2100
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Re: Militia needs scopes

Post by ShockUnitBlack »

I agree with ComradeHX on the whole Militia issue. They're a AAS faction first and an Insurgency faction second, and their equipment should reflect that. Developer statement on this matter would be greatly appreciated however.

Also, the USMC and US Army are very different factions (small arms excluded) - the US Army has Strykers and Black Hawks while the USMC has AAVP7s and Hueys.
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Murphy
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Re: Militia needs scopes

Post by Murphy »

ComradeHX wrote:You are struggling to put out correct statements here.

The model of optics does matter; otherwise why not give Russians nasty-looking ACOGs

You mentioned the model of optics, but the ACTUAL MODEL OF OPTICS DOESNT MATTER AS LONG AS ITS OPTICS IT WILL REVERT BACK TO RUSSIAN FORCES. They have different geometeries but besides that they were armed on PAR with Militia, there is no arguing that. Even if you say I struggle to speak the truth you are avoiding the obvious facts with your irrelevant arguments about tiny details, you simply refuse to stay on-topic and shoot off into these points that make no sense. You are grasping at straws here dude.

Overall if you give optics back to Militia they will play like Russian infantry, as they did in the past. There is no arguing that, if you don't see that I doubt how long you have been playing the game. This is about equipping infantry so why do people constantly bring up assets?

US army and US Marines have different assets and geo, but like Militia and Russia on an infantry scale they PLAY EXACTLY THE SAME. With the Russian faction already having the EXACT SAME ASSETS and then some why would you need to have a duplicate faction? There has not been any solid argument as to why we need Russia lite, instead you will change the topic onto giving the SKS optics because it has a rail, and removing a mistaken on a weapon texture that no one really noticed for years except you (nice eye btw), and how the US has two factions (based on ASSETS and this is an INFANTRY suggestion).

Again stay relevant.
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ComradeHX
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Re: Militia needs scopes

Post by ComradeHX »

Murphy wrote:You mentioned the model of optics, but the ACTUAL MODEL OF OPTICS DOESNT MATTER AS LONG AS ITS OPTICS IT WILL REVERT BACK TO RUSSIAN FORCES. They have different geometeries but besides that they were armed on PAR with Militia, there is no arguing that. Even if you say I struggle to speak the truth you are avoiding the obvious facts with your irrelevant arguments about tiny details, you simply refuse to stay on-topic and shoot off into these points that make no sense. You are grasping at straws here dude.

Overall if you give optics back to Militia they will play like Russian infantry, as they did in the past. There is no arguing that, if you don't see that I doubt how long you have been playing the game. This is about equipping infantry so why do people constantly bring up assets?

US army and US Marines have different assets and geo, but like Militia and Russia on an infantry scale they PLAY EXACTLY THE SAME. With the Russian faction already having the EXACT SAME ASSETS and then some why would you need to have a duplicate faction? There has not been any solid argument as to why we need Russia lite, instead you will change the topic onto giving the SKS optics because it has a rail, and removing a mistaken on a weapon texture that no one really noticed for years except you (nice eye btw), and how the US has two factions (based on ASSETS and this is an INFANTRY suggestion).

Again stay relevant.
They are not Russians, period. Optics do not magically give them AK74M, flora, 6sh92, 6b7...etc.
Militia infantry does not play like Russian infantry; because Militia infantry has ppsh, SKS, AKs-74u, and such non-standard weapons that are different from AK74m and not just different in looks.

Militia really could be just like Russians; there is no reason realism wise for them not to if they were Chechens(could be Soviet Veteran from Afghanistan wielding weapons/equipment for third tier units...because that is how old equipment end up and Militia has plenty of those).
Due to the maps(as everyone has been stating to convince me that Militia do not need scopes...I know they do not need scopes... they can still have some...); they still play very differently from Russian infantry. Giving them a little more scoped rifle is not going to change that because at the end players decide how to play the game...Militia players can attempt to take long range shots everyday if they have screens in huge resolutions.

They have to be on par. If Russians are vastly superior or inferior; this game is going to be unplayable.
US Army is ON PAR with MEC; USMC is ON PAR with Ze Germans. Do I need to mention the Canadians(obviously they need a funnier voice file...) They are ALL on par except for insurgents and, to some degree, Militia.
If you think Russian and Militia factions have the same assets; you should look at the most obvious air asset...I have not seen Militia base that spawn Havoc, T-90, BMP-3(or any BMP at all unless I missed some map)... nor have I seen Russians driving T-62 in game.

I was thinking that maybe it would be a really good compromise to throw the scope(without need to modify) onto SKS and call it a day; takes care of AK74 model issues and lets Militia have some sort of usable scope without being OP(that is still just 10 rounds per reload; while Blufor gets 30... the length of suppresion fire or even killing potential is obviously not as good along with the lower total ammo capacity). It makes more sense as militia rifleman choose from AK47(love it in CQB) and AK74(not useful at all since they do not do long range shots much and AK74 is only marginally better than AK47 at it) curretly, which is not really much of a choice; SKS is a pretty accurate rifle(relative to AK47, at the very least) and it can still show the sub-standardness of Militia through having lower(10 vs. 30) round per reload, cannot manually reload, and no full-auto as tradeoff for magnifying optics. That way BluFor still has big advantage at range. This is like killing two birds with one stone.

I mentioned two factions of U.S. because they have pretty similar situation to Militia and Russia if Militia and Russia actually have the same guns(which they do not; Russia is AK74M all the way while Militia's primary weapon diversity is obvious, and they get fullauto skorpion instead of semiauto s**t Makarov that holds almost half as many rounds as other pistols...I love Makarov but it is only good for shooting deserters and uncooperative prisoners). They do have pretty different assets; Militia is MISSING all the air assets while having lower quality ground assets PLUS different fob deployables.

There is not going to be any way that Militia will be a clone of RusFed forces, ever.

I am not saying militia needs to bolt a scope onto everything from AK47(obviously cannot) down to Ppsh(must be American to destroy old school guns with optics and still cannot hit broad side of barn). Just let regular rifleman kit(maybe not specialist; but LAT could be okay) have choice between AK47 and scoped SKS. Throw out AK74 because it has incorrect model and is almost completely obsolete due to AK47.
Last edited by ComradeHX on 2012-04-24 18:56, edited 15 times in total.
SuperHornet
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Re: Militia needs scopes

Post by SuperHornet »

ComradeHX wrote:Speak for yourself and learn to read.
Lol. I guess you're right, I can't read what your saying because it makes no sense at all.

Doesn't seem like I'm the only person with that problem.
ComradeHX
Posts: 3294
Joined: 2009-06-23 17:58

Re: Militia needs scopes

Post by ComradeHX »

SuperHornet wrote:Lol. I guess you're right, I can't read what your saying because it makes no sense at all.

Doesn't seem like I'm the only person with that problem.
You are the only person making unintelligent reply.

I also doubt your ability to read.

Get over it.
ytman
Posts: 634
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Re: Militia needs scopes

Post by ytman »

ShockUnitBlack wrote:I agree with ComradeHX on the whole Militia issue. They're a AAS faction first and an Insurgency faction second, and their equipment should reflect that. Developer statement on this matter would be greatly appreciated however.
Let me sift the thread for you.

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https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f255-v ... ost1706495

"Militia is a faction similar to talibans or insurgents. Its a paramilitary formation and I don't see those guys wearing AK's with scopes. Its not really possible to have not-so-well funded group with advanced weapons and assets. Even a tank is too much for militia. Even some armies today don't have scoped weapons for every soldier.

Gameplay wise it would be fine if maybe officers and maybe some of special kits would have it."

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https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f255-v ... ost1758262

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At most I can only suggest the Officer kit get an optic. Beyond that I'll give no compromise. Militia w/o optics are a very effective fighting force.
ComradeHX
Posts: 3294
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Re: Militia needs scopes

Post by ComradeHX »

ytman wrote:Let me sift the thread for you.

-----
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f255-v ... ost1706495

"Militia is a faction similar to talibans or insurgents. Its a paramilitary formation and I don't see those guys wearing AK's with scopes. Its not really possible to have not-so-well funded group with advanced weapons and assets. Even a tank is too much for militia. Even some armies today don't have scoped weapons for every soldier.

Gameplay wise it would be fine if maybe officers and maybe some of special kits would have it."

-----

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f255-v ... ost1758262

-----

At most I can only suggest the Officer kit get an optic. Beyond that I'll give no compromise. Militia w/o optics are a very effective fighting force.
Some armies(I am pretty sure most armies do equip more elite units with some sort; but of course that is for parts of those conventional forces not represented in PR) do not have optics for every soldier because in real life, eyes are not limited to the resolution of a flat monitor...

Real Armies do not have to equip all units with magnifying optics, but most do equip some units with those.

When you read my posts you will find that I am now saying SKS should have scope and it makes perfect sense because Militia, being so poor, should use more 7.62x39 rounds that are much more commonly available. And AK47 cannot have scope securely mounted on for obvious reasons(unless it is one of those horrible American tactikrap conversion like gastube replacement that has a rail on top... which makes the AK less practical); full stock AK74 should just disappear. I am not saying Militia should have that pictured AK74M with bayonet and nightvision(not just a normal scope)...not to mention that recoil pad is for the grenade launcher... It is also very balanced due to SKS's limitations(semiauto only, 10 rounds per reload, no reload before 10 rounds are fired...etc.).

Apparently a tank that is too much for militia is still there on some Militia maps. That means these are the more well-equipped(elite, perhaps) unit of a badly-trained(in general) paramilitary force. Thus it makes perfect sense for the standard rifleman(again, not AR, not specialist, not medic...) to have magnifying optics.
Last edited by ComradeHX on 2012-04-24 21:22, edited 7 times in total.
Murphy
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Re: Militia needs scopes

Post by Murphy »

Comrade you really need to learn to read better, most of your arguments are irrelevant to what you are arguing against especially the Asset comment you made in retort to mine because Russia can field the exact same assets as Militia and field essentially the same weaponry (safe for the PPSH and SKS). So in that sense Militia is indeed just a duplicate of Russia with the older assets being fielded and 2 weapons difference, which in the end equal out as the Russian medic is better equipped while the specialist lacks the overwhelming rate of fire of a PPSH, but makes up for it with a shotgun.

You are just an overly argumentative person who skirts around any actual points you may be getting to, and as such there is a growing number of posters who cannot bare to discuss things with you. Others seem to be able to grasp the point an while they may not agree at least have arguments that follow a train of thought pertaining to the topic at hand. You sir are constantly deflecting actual points with unrelated and circumstantial retorts, you do not further your side of the argument instead you degrade it into discussing entirely different subjects (When did every other Faction really have to come into play? Does Militia face MEC/Canada/China? When I mentioned don't bring up assets you promptly shift into overdrive on the assets).

Stop while your ahead, or is it too late.
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ComradeHX
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Re: Militia needs scopes

Post by ComradeHX »

Murphy wrote:Comrade you really need to learn to read better, most of your arguments are irrelevant to what you are arguing against especially the Asset comment you made in retort to mine because Russia can field the exact same assets as Militia and field essentially the same weaponry (safe for the PPSH and SKS). So in that sense Militia is indeed just a duplicate of Russia with the older assets being fielded and 2 weapons difference, which in the end equal out as the Russian medic is better equipped while the specialist lacks the overwhelming rate of fire of a PPSH, but makes up for it with a shotgun.

You are just an overly argumentative person who skirts around any actual points you may be getting to, and as such there is a growing number of posters who cannot bare to discuss things with you. Others seem to be able to grasp the point an while they may not agree at least have arguments that follow a train of thought pertaining to the topic at hand. You sir are constantly deflecting actual points with unrelated and circumstantial retorts, you do not further your side of the argument instead you degrade it into discussing entirely different subjects (When did every other Faction really have to come into play? Does Militia face MEC/Canada/China? When I mentioned don't bring up assets you promptly shift into overdrive on the assets).

Stop while your ahead, or is it too late.
When you posted that Militia is essentially a duplicated of Russia; every other conventional factions come into play because although their weapons models are different, most of them(except China and MEC) have the same weapon stats. They all have similar vehicles in the same tier with some minor differences. Why bother having different factions? Because they look different.

Militia looks different from Russia and has far more difference from Russian than Canada has from U.S. Army. Adding scope is not going to take away the obvious weapon differences(especially when AR still has no magnified optics and ppsh is overrated in CQB while next to useless at longer ranges).

Why not remind yourself what is the topic at hand? All this argument that Militia is going to be clone of Russia(of course they are going to look like that to the uneducated) is only backed up by your false claims such as "they have same assets"(no they do not, BRDM2 and BTR60 are the only things common and Russia has more than that; you might as well compare Militia to MEC because MEC also has BRDM2 and BTR60).

You mention no assets so why do we even have U.S. army and USMC??? They have basically the same infantry; you HAVE to differentiate them due to assets. Same can be done with Militia; even if you give every militia AK74(fullstock) and let them have scoped AK74 and zoomed PKM; they are still not going to be duplicate of RusFed forces for that reason. Because at the very least they look different and have different assets.

Which is why giving Militia scopes is not going to make them any less unique and "Militia will be duplicate of Russia" is NOT a reason to not let Militia have scopes(put in SVD's PSO on it is fine, and keep it x4).
--------------------------------
Let's recap on the points people have made against militia have scopes:
1. they do not need it because map lets them be effective with ironsights and other stuff.
-obviously; otherwise the game would be unplayable for Militia. My point is that Militia CAN have scopes and WHY NOT(again anyone IRL can get scopes; militia is fictional anyway)
Scoped rifleman kit is a CHOICE, Militia is not forced to snipe from hilltops and the map/assets discourages that even more. Unfortunately in AAS you cannot "assault and secure" a flag with ambush(again, it is great if ambush hits something, but there is not enough players to cover every approach while still maintaining a decent amount defending the flag) and concealment is not as much as in Vietnam maps so scopes do have distinct advantages in certain areas(a lot of them around flags, which is supposed to be important in AAS). It makes gameplay more interesting for BluFor too, because BluFor will not be 99% secure by deploying AR on flags and mow down everything trying to recapture it.
2. they will become duplicate of RusFed Forces.
-Like I have explained; they will not be duplicates if they get magnifying optics, or at least they are just as much of duplicates of Russians than any conventional forces are to other conventional forces.

Two different weapons(actually, Militia can have M60, FAL, SKS, AK47, and PPsh as primary in regular kits...so that is five; not to mention sidearm and grenade traps...) is already plenty of difference in separating Militia from Russia.

3. You can say that having scoped rifleman kits as a choice encourages sniping from hilltops. But according to everyone who tried to argue against militia getting scopes...maps encourage close range and ambushes. Militia players are not stupid; they will not pick a 10shots, not manually reloadable, scoped, semi-auto only rifle for CQB.

It can be said that long range(about as common as close range) enounters encourages the Militia to choose rifles with magnifying optics. They can do close quarters fighting and close range ambushes with AK47 and when needing to suppress something far away(accurately; because spraying in general direction does very little) they can switch to SKS with scope.
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I think it is fine to not let Militia have scope on AR and keep specialist special with ppsh. Give regular rifleman kits(perhaps include LAT) SKS with scope(as explained above; still very much unconventional due to SKS's distinct disadvantage/advantage of being a 7.62x39 rifle with 10 round per reload, semi-auto only, and cannot reload before empty) to replace the AK74(which does not seem to make a lot of sense realism wise and the model is incorrect anyway...AK74 with sidemount is NOT common). This way Militia is still at clear disadvantage while having a shootout from hilltop to hilltop(deployed AR still has no optics/zoom, scoped rifles hold 20 less rounds...) BUT have some sort of advantage when doing short raids/ambushes(SKS is 7.62x39, which is slightly more powerful; it only holds 10 rounds so Militia squad should just shoot 10 rounds accurately for kill/harrassment and gtfo quick to restage the ambush elsewhere) and encourages short firefights instead of prolonged ones(because when AR gets the time to deploy or BluFor gets closer, Militia will be at clear disadvantage) as people wanted less conventional tactics.
Last edited by ComradeHX on 2012-04-24 22:56, edited 13 times in total.
Stealthgato
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Re: Militia needs scopes

Post by Stealthgato »

An SKS with scope for rifleman AP (or just scoped AK in case nobody wants to model scoped SKS) would be nice, and maybe scoped AK (or even scoped FAL? hmm yes quite) for officer and that's it. Giving scopes to regular rifleman is too much.
IINoddyII
Retired PR Developer
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Re: Militia needs scopes

Post by IINoddyII »

Not going to waste time cleaning up the personal attacks... Next time the person is attacked not the issue, the post will be deleted and infraction given.
KiloJules
Posts: 792
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Re: Militia needs scopes

Post by KiloJules »

First off: I don't think Militia n-e-e-d-s scopes, they have some already anyway...

Still: Over the years of fighting against the Russian armed forces, Militia managed to lay hands on some scopes and newer AKs...so they are given to some of the fighters (rightclick option for...idk...some kits where it seems appropriate)

Think that could be an option that serves all

...I will still take my (hopefully unscoped) AKS as SL :)
CommunistComma
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Re: Militia needs scopes

Post by CommunistComma »

First off they only have scopes on the marksman and sniper, that's it.

I like reading all this text, just walls and walls of it. Skimming how mad everyone is getting at each other, putting more dedication into their debate which effects nothing and nobody on the dev team is going to read.
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori
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billysmall44
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Re: Militia needs scopes

Post by billysmall44 »

I think no scoped on the militia give them an advantage, Maybe not 100% of the time. So I'm going on a limb and saying most players prefer the magnified rifleman scope over the red dot. When your fighting close that can be the worst possible thing to have, forcing you to hip fire or risk scoping in and having to swing wildly to get your entire enemy to fill your scope. Since most fighting in Militia maps take place in CQB or in the dense forest, id say that not having scopes is just fine.

My suggestion, when on the militia team, stay out of the open. Take the fight to where the ball is in your court. Isn't that what the whole game is about? Using what you have to win? You still have 500 other ways to win without scopes.
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