Mikemonster wrote:What I meant was that the marksman kit was overpowered when used by a lonewolf - But the G3 isn't.
For instance, if you had the SVD in insurgency you will be a lot more dangerous to the enemy than if you had a scoped G3.
Although thinking about it, I rarely see marksman lonewolves outside of Ins so I do think it's not a big deal like the sniper kit is, point taken.
Last time I played Muttrah as MEC, my SL sent me alone on FOB hunting, I destroyed 2 of them and killed 2 full squads on my own, and clearly the G3 was helping... so G3+lonewolfing is indeed quite overpowered in urban areas, marksman + lonewolfing = useless in urban areas... and as infantry you shouldn't be on the open... so you either play wrong, or the marksman was really really good...
Anyway, we clearly don't play the same game (server) or with the same kind of people so I can't really argue with you as we both have complete different views of the game. I'm out.
I find people have enough trouble not shooting at friendlies already, it's almost as if they don't check their targets with binocs anyway. No big loss then! I'll just keep on getting shot by fools, it won't change that much by not having them.
Good to see the removal of binos, people will be more careful.
But I personally think zoom is needed, Not too much just 2 times is good.
If there is no zoom or binos, Too few of ppl will use Iron sight weapon, and ACOG will be everywhere.
Remove the bino will surely a very very bad news to Insurgents. You know the reason.
Problem on falklands is for me, that if you scan an area without binocs which is more than 300m away, you really have to squint your eyes and get close to the monitor.
It hurts my eyes, i cant do that too long to be honest..not for a whole evening of pr
very exhausting in my opinion!
i like the realism aspect that not everyone has binoculars, but also, as others have said, we're looking at pixels and it can be hard to tell what's what.
i guess we'll see how it goes.
You guys haven't lost faith in our dev team have you? They've brought the mod this far and have done an amazing job, better then AAA development teams (granted they have had years to perfect their product). PR offers game play that actually induces teamwork, unheard of in this day and age (I hear MoH is bringing this teamwork oriented game play into the mainstream), but more importantly it is still in development and as such there are plenty of options on the table.
The point I'm getting at is trust the dev team with this change, and realize if it turns out like the whole RPG trajectory fiasco I'm sure they can easily adjust it to be more balanced and keep PR as fun as it is/has been this whole time.
I seriously think it's a good idea to remove the binoculars for the standard kits. This will make the SL a more valuable asset and maybe strengthen his role.
There's times where when you play as a faction, you get so immersed by the surroundings and your player that you feel like you are 'him'
I'm one of them, and I use my binocular kits as Insurgents because I'm shit scared and don't want the enemy to find me, and I want to find him first.
The problem is, that most of the time, you aren't focused on defending a known position communicated by Team Chat. It applies to the army too. The army are the guys hunting for Insurgent Caches, to kill anyone and capture anyone for intelligence relating to weapons cache and stuff like that.
Many times I use the binoculars, and an enemy always kicks my *** 80% of the time from a position other than the one I am looking at. And while I look at them, almost all the time they fire back, usually hitting me, and sacrificing deviation to get a good position, point, wait then fire. It's more situation narrowing than pointing your gun at one point without moving the direction, and a penalty for switching weapons.
One thing I don't understand, and must be brought up, is: What's the point of Binoculars for Squad Lead when he got the GLTD (Guided Laser Target Designator) that can zoom in? (Apart from not being able to signal to your squad to attack the position)
The problem is: That GLTD are reserved for fire missions, labeling enemy contacts to the commander & spotting hostile vehicles, assets, fobs etc and the binoculars are more for infantry and seeing where to move since pressing 'T' gives you options to move, attack, defend, observe etc.
So yeah, situational awareness drops depending on your role as the squad. If you are a Rifleman, your role is to cover all sides to prevent an enemy ambushing you and to defend your squad all while heading to the objective.
Medic can use the binoculars to spot allies down that, in cases, won't be able to shout 'Medic!' because it will let the enemy know that there is a medic, and it will be easier to see where the body is to revive.
Sniper's reason for the binocular kit is the same as Squad Leader aka Officer.
The rest, well, picking up binoculars, switching to gun, aiming and shooting takes a lot of time, and if the enemy spots you, he has an advantage more.
For the pixel thing, well in the distance, if you can't take them out, then don't, and report it to a squad leader.
Riflemen is good for 300m-400m max, more effective with medium and highly effective close range, that is, if your stance is hip-fire.
So yeah, when a Squad Leader who actually treats binoculars as useful uses it, he has to be careful to not expose his position, to use stealth and timing so that the enemy doesn't know they are being spied upon.
Crewman's probably don't need one as they are driving a vehicle. People need to learn how to stop tanks without binoculars.
I hope people realize that it takes away lone wolfing, and actually makes game play better as it makes you focused on your gun's sight, scope, surroundings (North, East, South, West), what sector in the map is the enemy, and it makes game play smoother by forcing you to work as a team to have fun and also disallows camping. Rather than wait for an enemy to come in a likely position, you can have more fun and more close-contact fighting without just standing there hoping to find an enemy.
It will also help Insurgency more as people are less likely to hide in a place using binoculars, and actually allows more close combat, which, combined with the new deviation, will be absolute kick-*** and I can't wait to see the improvements in the upcoming version!
It's like bots. Ever played with bots? They don't use binoculars. That's what makes it fun. Why wait when you could have a team suppressing, your squad stealthy and quietly (without sprinting) comes from an unprotected side and then ambush the enemy squad.
So, in conclusion, Officers aka Squad Leaders (The most important one with the role), Sniper and Medic all need it but for the rest, it's not needed, it affects game-play & it's flow, fun factor and more importantly, it's unrealistic.
It's like how incendiaries in limited kits waste the role out of the respected kits, like in the U.S Marines/Army, the Automatic Rifleman has one where it's role is to suppress the enemy and as a choke point for defense. An MG guy doesn't need to rush in, plant an incendiary and die. He needs to eliminate reinforcements at his requested places by the Squad Leader and all the team must use tactics to hinder the enemy's defense.
And he doesn't need to use his binoculars to spot an enemy position, that role is for the Squad Leader. If he isn't present or if he is a beginner newbie, then someone else will be it and he can try to take up the role. It doesn't matter what your skill level is, it is much better to have a responsive squad that doesn't do what your role is, and pisses you off.
Only Rifleman's need incendiaries. Plus you could pick a dead soldiers Riflemen kit to use it on the cache. It'll also encourage the riflemen to go back to base to use the ammo box to refill the incendiaries up.
Last edited by Arab on 2012-10-26 03:40, edited 5 times in total.
Mikemonster wrote:I think it will be good, and should encourage less lonewolfing (this time in a correct manner).
That is, of course, if the new version of PR cuts down on the number of Sniper and Marksman kits like they should have done ages ago.
If the number of omgsnip0r kits remains as it is it will just make the average infantry player even less enthused about playing and more likely to lonewolf to get kills and actually have fun (a squad with no vision putting suppressing fire onto someone they can't see because 16 pixels are now just 1 are just going to get headshotted one by one).
If the SL kit is the only one with the ability to zoom in and see the sniper, once he's killed (outright) it will:
a) Make his job harder as he didn't see the sniper and now all of his squad will be even more clueless as to what to do compared to 0.97
b) Make his job harder because they will have the defeatist attitude of being powerless compared to the lonewolf sniper with his ability to actually kill them. This feeling of powerless essentially ruins most PR games for anyone that plays the infantry role as it is, it saps the enjoyment and squad spirit and happens even in squads full of good players - which is ridiculous.
Now a lot of people will probably say 'well a & b make snip0ring realistic in PR' .. And I will say well screw you, snipers and marksmen ruin PR, make it more complex than it should be, and exist mainly just because experienced players snipe and enjoy getting the kills, and because vBF2 had the kits. They're just game ruiners for the other 60 players.
Huh?How can you cut one sniper kit per team down?Besides scoped SAW kits are far superior in just about every way as far as l33t long ranged keels goes.Besides if you take a sniper kit for kills your doing it wrong,if your a lone wolf sniper you are also doing it very wrong.
You wrote a huge essay about the most weak and limited kit in the game being OP *claps*
We've been doing well keeping the discussion civil up to this point, but there's still a bit of a hostile tone at times. Let's keep that in check.
I still believe that this change will be a net benefit to squad level situational awareness. For the bulk of PR scenarios, you still have the optics on your rifle to assist with long-range target acquisition and shooting. If you chose to go with close quarters kits, manage your close quarters situational awareness and let your buddies deal with the long range threats. If too many people are in tunnel vision in your squad (binocs, optics, or otherwise), your entire squad is in greater danger of being engaged by an unknown threat. Taking out binoculars will help mitigate this. At the squad level, if you find yourself taking more effective fire than you are dishing out, your instinct should be to break contact, not to keep firing and getting picked off.
It will be a hard adaptation to make for some players, but we believe it will ultimately promote better gameplay in the end. We can always revert the change if it doesn't play out that way. I don't believe a weaker-than-expected outcome from this will compromise the quality of the 1.0 release.
Trooper909 wrote:Huh?How can you cut one sniper kit per team down?Besides scoped SAW kits are far superior in just about every way as far as l33t long ranged keels goes.Besides if you take a sniper kit for kills your doing it wrong,if your a lone wolf sniper you are also doing it very wrong.
You wrote a huge essay about the most weak and limited kit in the game being OP *claps*
And you didn't read it, nor my reply at the top of this page.
* claps *
Basically removing binos will have the effect of making Infantry even less fun and even more frustrating to play.
I always thought there were two snip0r kits per team.. By the looks of it you're one of the guys that uses it like it's a religious mission though so I presume you're right.
If the regular players don't have binos it will be even more enjoyable for Carlos Hathcock role-players to 'play sniper' or lonewolf with the marksman..
What I'm saying is that removing binoculars will probably help squad play but at the cost of underpowering the squad kits and re-assigning a lot of their collective responsibility to the SL.. And this will further empower everyone with assets or l33t kits trying to kill the squad, leading to overall less fun for Inf squads (which is already rock bottom compared to all the lonewolfing you can do with a friend in a dedicated assets squad).
I care a lot about the infantry squad role in PR because that's where everyone starts when they are new and because that's what I think the BF2 engine portrays best (engine limitations reduce all the other roles to a metaphorical representation really). It is also the hardest, least fun part of the game, which leads to experienced players 'specialising' by making closed squads or using the assets to lonewolf. Why co-operate with 5 other guys constantly, and the other squads occasionally, when you can just take an asset or a sniper kit and only occasionally have to talk to other squads as you play 'hunter killer'?
Any change that I think is going to make the Inf role even less fun or more complex I resist, naturally.. This included. I do think it will work as intended, but only alongside similar adjustments to other game dynamics that will allow for the change..
Last edited by Mikemonster on 2012-10-26 11:23, edited 1 time in total.
