All guns are way too accurate

Guerra norte · Post by **Guerra norte** » 2006-10-08 10:24

Hehe bullets don't wizz no more.

kingcnut · Post by **kingcnut** » 2006-10-08 13:14

It doesn't really matter what sound they make.

hoak · Post by **hoak** » 2006-10-08 14:41

The weapons in PRM are definitely not, "way too accurate", the mechanics of how the weapons are brought to aim may be a bit too easy and full auto spray may a bit too accurate on some weapons...

Due to pixelation and other effects in games; in BF2/PRM the distances we can effectively see unaided by optics, including the slight ironsights aimed 'zoom', we can only see to a fraction of the distance you could easily recognize a man size target in real life... So, even though PRM/BF2 are on a much larger scale then many FPS games, the range of the typical engagement is still far too often unrealistically close.

The thread author is correct in his premise that it is too fast and easy to bring a weapon to aim in this and many other games; but accuracy is not a realistic way to mitigate that as most capable infantry men, no less special ops would be able to fire virtually all the rifles semi-automatically, standing, at the distance limit of man size target recognition in the game, with pin-point accuracy.

Even worse with respect to semi-automatic, aimed fire; reducing accuracy to achieve some other intended outcome will always have two negative outcomes on game-play... By decreasing accuracy you will require the player to fire more rounds to hit a given target, and you punish marksmanship skill, encouraging less skilled spam and spray play...

Taking the path of 'Super Realism', where certain aspects of reality are scaled upwards to create a more realistic outcome in game-play is on way to go; SWAT 4 does this by making it's weapon recoil effects very exaggerated, and forcing player to move at scale tactical assault speeds (which feels very slow).

Regardless, if you want realistic fire-fights, a game design that encourages realistic squad maneuver tactics, and a weapon metrics system that rewards realistic marksmanship skill: semi-auto accuracy should be literally code perfect and pin-point when prone, and the weapon is allowed to settle (net-code, latency, and asset errors will add more then enough scale inaccuracy of their own)...

Clypp · Post by **Clypp** » 2006-10-08 16:10

I really like the system Ghost Recon used in which you have to let the gun "settle" before it becomes accurate. This would fix prone spamming etc but I don't know it it possible in the engine.

The new "CRACK" bullet sounds will make people take cover more. I can hardly hear the current "whizz" sound now so I rarely take cover since I don't even know I'm being shot at.

kingcnut · Post by **kingcnut** » 2006-10-08 16:17

"The new "CRACK" bullet sounds will make people take cover more."

I believe in most cases it won't, because the person will already be dead before they have a chance to react.

"at the distance limit of man size target recognition in the game, with pin-point accuracy."

On a rifle range, where you can take a few seconds to relax and prepare your shot, maybe. In the middle of a gunfight, where you are already exhausted from running, with people firing at you, and adrenaline pumping, I doubt it.

Gecko1969 · Post by **Gecko1969** » 2006-10-08 17:07

I just installed the new crack sounds and I liked the effect. I seemed to notice more when bullets were landing behind me so that I did not back up in to the line of fire.

BF2's "lag compensation" on the network level seems to be worse than some games five years older. And with marksmanship the split second I pull the trigger when leading a distant moving target NEEDS to be the moment it happens. But BF2 network code seems to think it's whenever the network packet arrives so I miss a fair bit more than I should. I guess I could pay big bucks (for me as a student anything much above free is too much money) for a dedicated internet connection but that is not going to happen.

MonkeyNutz · Post by **MonkeyNutz** » 2006-10-08 17:59

I think players have had years of experience based on cone fire bullet spread and lazy weapon and player handling.

Post by **RikiRude** » 2006-10-08 19:17

I'm not going ot take the time to read all the posts atm, but... what is this guy talking about?

I never understand when people come and point out the flaws in PR, when they are actually just pointing out the flaws to 90% of the FPS out there =S . You don't really accomplish anything.

Also many of your suggestions are out of the BF2 engine, and these ocmplaints are something that you shouldn't be directing towards PR, direct it to EA/DiCE. If you wanted a super realistic game you need a combination of things that I personally haven't seen in a FPS as of yet.

Also I use tactics o fall sorts and they help me live much longer in the PR world then when I would rush in and such, so I don't see a valid complaint there either.

Correct me if I missed the point you were trying to make.

hoak · Post by **hoak** » 2006-10-08 19:26

kingcnut wrote:"at the distance limit of man size target recognition in the game, with pin-point accuracy."

On a rifle range, where you can take a few seconds to relax and prepare your shot, maybe. In the middle of a gunfight, where you are already exhausted from running, with people firing at you, and adrenaline pumping, I doubt it.

That would depend on who exactly you're talking about; a National Guardsman 40 lbs. overweight for the infantry MOS that's only fired a few hundred rounds in the last year, possibly...

But again the maximum distance you can see a player in BF2/PRM before he's a pixleated blob is small fraction of the distance even a 'weekend warrio' trains to hit on the firing range... If he couldn't hit accurately at those ranges he probably wouldn't be in the National Guard in the first place.

Now if you're talking about any one of several special forces Units; those men literally run and fire all day, every day, burn million dollar per man ammunition budgets -- and can hit virtually at the limit of the accuracy of the weapon when completely exhausted, nearly blind, and bleeding out of every orface -- and that is a factual understatement...

Summarily shooting with nail driving accuracy at BF2/PRM's limited disances would be nothing short of effortless for any decent marksman no less an elite Man of War... None of BF2 or PRM's scenarios potray long term, heavy infantry, grind missions where you soldiers haven't slept for months and the only thing to eat buddies tonails, scabs and dead skin...

trogdor1289 · Post by **trogdor1289** » 2006-10-08 19:41

My suggestion if you want that kind of realism is join the Marines or some branch of an active military. If you want "ong term, heavy infantry, long term, grind missions, where you slept for months and the only thing to eat buddies tonails, scabs and dead skin..." then join the French Foregin Legion.

hoak · Post by **hoak** » 2006-10-08 20:59

'[R-MOD wrote:trogdor1289']My suggestion if you want that kind of realism is join the Marines or some branch of an active military. If you want "ong term, heavy infantry, long term, grind missions, where you slept for months and the only thing to eat buddies tonails, scabs and dead skin..." then join the French Foregin Legion.

Who? Me? Cool the petty personal sarcasim, I've had plenty of reality -- the discussion here was accuracy in PRM...

Punisher1 · Post by **Punisher1** » 2006-10-09 04:45

I think folks forget to read the "about" section of the site ya know the one that states:

"The name 'Project Reality' is not solely for the purpose of throwing around a catchy title. Project Reality's team has a group of dedicated individuals, several of whom have backgrounds in armed services. Whose sole task it is to provide researched findings and statistical information to the developers tasked with creating the mod itself. If you are looking for a fact based FPS shooter from the perspective of a Soldier, Project Reality will be there to cater to those needs. "

I think the whole mission statement went out the window. But then it's not like you are paying people to make this mod. The other issue I hear alot is the engine does not suport blah blah blah. On top of this you have quite a few guys that seem to keep thinking Game play over the realistic mod they set off to create.

Then you got a group of fans that say things without looking into the subject before they post.

Bottom line here kids is that weapons are made to kill and they act differently for each person and each person has certian skill levels with said weapon. With that said untill you shoot 100's if not thousands of rounds thru said weapons and or have video proof of the way a weapon fires I'd hold up on suggesting nerfing any weapon system.

Addtionally I think the National Guard comment was a bit over the top.

kingcnut · Post by **kingcnut** » 2006-10-09 17:48

If Special Forces were as accurate as you say, they wouldn't use tactics like suppressing fire, overwatch etc. They would just kill any enemy they saw the instant they saw them.

The fact is firing a weapon on the range is completely different to firing it in a battle.

If this game was realistic, then the battles it "simulates" would appear realistic, however they are not. Tactics are non-existant in this game. Flanking is unnecessary, cover is unnecessary, the only thing you need are twitch reflexes.

If the weapons were realistic then this would not be the case.

kingcnut · Post by **kingcnut** » 2006-10-09 18:04

Punisher1 wrote:
"The name 'Project Reality' is not solely for the purpose of throwing around a catchy title. Project Reality's team has a group of dedicated individuals, several of whom have backgrounds in armed services. Whose sole task it is to provide researched findings and statistical information to the developers tasked with creating the mod itself. If you are looking for a fact based FPS shooter from the perspective of a Soldier, Project Reality will be there to cater to those needs. "

If such statistics exist you can guarantee they are based on weapons tested on a range, not in a gun fight. No data exists for weapon accuracy in the middle of a battle.

Anyone can hit a target when you are relaxed and given time to prepare your shot. Its much hider when you only have a 1/10 th of a second in between getting shot at and breathing heavily.

Gyberg · Post by **Gyberg** » 2006-10-12 19:55

why don't you just play another game if you are going to ***** about it so much?

Fact is that it is a great mod and when played on the right servers you can enjoy fantastic teamwork and all the benefits of it aswell.

Post by **Ghostrider** » 2006-10-12 20:06

kingcnut wrote:If Special Forces were as accurate as you say, they wouldn't use tactics like suppressing fire, overwatch etc. They would just kill any enemy they saw the instant they saw them.

The fact is firing a weapon on the range is completely different to firing it in a battle.

If this game was realistic, then the battles it "simulates" would appear realistic, however they are not. Tactics are non-existant in this game. Flanking is unnecessary, cover is unnecessary, the only thing you need are twitch reflexes.

If the weapons were realistic then this would not be the case.

Well, new guy, there're a lot of things that are hardcoded into the engine, which means that there's no way to work around it. Some of the things pointed out in here, fall into that category.

Regarding the accuracy of the weapons, we're still tweaking them, since it's a little hard to come across a person that has actually fired ALL of the different weapons modelled in-game AND be a programmer at the same time, we'll stick to the balancing act and the info our military advisors can provide (which is reliable I must add). So instead of complaining, constructive critisism would be a lot better.

Have you fired any of the weapons you're complaining about, in order to give us some good useful feedback? If you have, feel free to post your own experience and suggestions here.

-Ghost

EDIT: There's also a natural tendency from gun manufacturers in which they put all their efforts into making their weapons be as accurate as they can possibly get.

Top_Cat_AxJnAt · Post by **Top_Cat_AxJnAt** » 2006-10-12 20:19

Flanking wins hands down on 80% + of games. You sand up tall where the enemy can see you and you will be dead pretty quickly and IF you are not why have you not won the game.

"Tactics are non-existant in this game." - semi contradic, suggest they dont exist, then why should they if they are not needed: "Flanking is unnecessary" - you make little sense.

All in all, you are entitled to say those comments if you can win most game with out using cover, or tactics, until that day do as egg says.

IDEA: scroll key to lower and raise gun, from hip up to shoulder. Accuracy changes accordinly AND is also affected by stance. So technically there are 100's + different levels of accuracy compared with most games that have only 5 ish.
On top of this, you can still use the right click - you can set certain gun heights (pre determined by you,and can be changed at any time aswell) e.g 1st click brings it up to certain hieght, 2nd click brings it hiegher that 3rd back to orginal.

I think thise would remove alot of complaing, give players billions of times for freedom AND would be much more realistic.
ON TOp again, you movemnet speed would also be affected by hight of gun IT WOULD NOT be directly proportional but would require alot of testing in field< AND whole body hieght would alos need to be taken in to account.

OVerall this would require lots of hard would for what most DEVs would consider not worth it.

IDEA2: adaptive crouch - basically you head heigh is compared with surrounding land (heighest object with in 5m) and heigh at which you need to crouch TO BE HIDDEN is calculated and changed.
This represents real soldier making sure he is hidden when behind a certain peice of cover.
ON TOP OF THIS a simple up button would be added so players coudl raise them selves just enough to shoot over the cover and NO MORe.

AGAIN overall this would require tonns of work and effort BUT I THINK IT WOULD BE wonderfull.

The above is pretty much why i refuse to buy another COD trype game, lack of imagination!!!! OPEN YOUR MIND

ALthough i fully realise non of this is possible with BF2.

SiN|ScarFace · Post by **SiN|ScarFace** » 2006-10-12 20:59

Dude the ranges of infantry combat in BF2 are less than 200m, and its more commonly 50-100m. If you have fired thousands of rounds with your weapon, hitting things at that range is not difficult. M16 type weapons IRL have low recoil and at 50-100m are pretty much point and shoot. I saw a guy at the range with an AR-15 hit a pumpkin at 75 yards 5 out of 5 shots as fast as he could pull the trigger, just joe bob nobody with some time behind his rifle.

You are making this out to be a bigger deal that it really is. In PR most people cant hit shit, esp moving targets, but there will always be people who CAN hit you and effectively moving or not, the same is true in real life, some people can shoot better than others. You are basicly complaining because YOU are dying often enough for it to cause you frustration.

kingcnut · Post by **kingcnut** » 2006-10-13 20:47

Top _Cat the great wrote: "Tactics are non-existant in this game." - semi contradic, suggest they dont exist, then why should they if they are not needed:

Que? They should exist because they exist in real life and the aim of this mod is "realism".

Top _Cat the great wrote:
All in all, you are entitled to say those comments if you can win most game with out using cover, or tactics, until that day do as egg says.

Alternatively I can say it if I do use tactics and cover but still lose to another team that doesn't. In fact both situations frequently happen.

I saw a guy at the range with an AR-15 hit a pumpkin at 75 yards 5 out of 5 shots as fast as he could pull the trigger

Of course you did. However, I would wager, he hadn't ran to his position carrying 40lbs of kit and wasn't taking suppressing fire from enemies. Add that to the scenario and I would suspect his accuracy wasn't quite the same.

kingcnut · Post by **kingcnut** » 2006-10-13 20:50

You are basicly complaining because YOU are dying often enough for it to cause you frustration.

I would rephrase that. I am complaining because I tend to die more when I use realistic tactics and tend to die less when I employ tactics used in any other arcade FPS.