Knives for pilot kits?

[Truism]

Ugh. Finding references is a pain. Can I just find some references to SF using ******* swords or axes instead? Those are quick and easy to find since they're out of the ordinary and get documented because of that.

Soldiers use anything and everything. SF have used ludicrously strange things an alarming amount. You only need to talk to a few people who have worked in those communities for a while to get a feel for just how "special" they are.

[Hotrod525]

I think knife should be removed at all... or convert into "fixed on cannon" one. Cause between me and you, and i'm a soldier, in the land army, doing Reconnaissance, and i swear to god, ill never use my knife to stab somone to death. That just dont make anysense, getting that close to enemy, thats wearing armor suite, trying to stab him, comon, there is more chance that he ear me comin turn around and fire a burst than i have trying to pierce he's ceramic plate with my knife.

[Mikemonster]

It wasn't hard for me to find sources backing up my arguments though, was it?

If your sources for SF guys killing with swords and axes are easy to find, why not provide them? (Sounds like good reading to be honest). I have already mentioned though, these weapons might actually be effective, a knife is not.

I'd be quite sceptical of any stories you hear from the 'SF' community as well Truism, call me a cynic! If you want to tell us who you know and what they've said on the subject i'd still like to hear it though.


Think about it. If you sneaked up behind someone wearing a helmet and body armour, would you try to stab them to death 'silently' or would you grab a massive f**k off rock and smash them round the face with it? Have you seen how long it takes people to die, even after being near beheaded? I'd rather use a gun as a club for that. Better still a scaffolding bar. Or better still (in PR) just not have the option to do ninja stuff as a downed pilot. That's taking realism a bit too far though right..


Hotrod, thanks for your input mate, a voice of reason! .. Any war stories including tomahawks available for us though?


I'm really not against PR having arcade aspects by the way. I don't want to play a milsim. I'm just against people deluding themselves and then using 'reality' as an argument to support their misconceptions.

[Truism]

"any officer who goes into action without his sword is improperly armed."
Jack Churchill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that'll get you longbows and a bastardsword...

"Another militant tossed a rocket-propelled grenade at the soldiers but no one was hurt."
Axe attack was an ambush, Canadian military says - World - CBC News axes

"Her French companions, especially Henri Tardivat, praised her fighting spirit, amply demonstrated when she killed an SS sentry with her bare hands to prevent him from raising the alarm during a raid."
Nancy Wake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Medal of Honor Recipients - World War II (A-F) there's one in there somewhere

The problem is that these sorts of things aren't catalogued and neatly recorded. The first dozen pages on a google search for "sentry knife" gets you knives ironically brand named sentry. If you could find a detailed account of Maj Fairbairn's life, you'd get dozens of stories of knifings and silent killings of all kind, but alas. It's hard.

[Acecombatzer0]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Brits_soldiers_in_Basra_03.jpg

Just incase people thought that Carbines/SMG's were issued to the US Forces.

(Look to the left)

[Mikemonster]

Jack Churchill never killed anyone with the Claymore though - It was a prop, like Patton's six shooters. (He used a bow apparently at one point in 1940 I think).

The Axe attack isn't a knife attack (an Axe might actually KO an opponent, a knife probably wouldn't).

Nancy Wake also said this (according to a newspaper):

"They'd taught this judo-chop stuff with the flat of the hand at SOE, and I practised away at it. But this was the only time I used it -- whack -- and it killed him all right. I was really surprised."

Which I find extremely unlikely for all the obvious reasons.

The Fairburn (commando) knife was designed to slip between ribs and penetrate the heart by the looks of it. The sides weren't sharp (but could be sharpened). How would a pilot do that to anyone but an Insurgent player?

Also pilots won't be trained anything like the Commando's. The knife would presumably (if used) be used in a manic 'knitting needle' style of attack, aimed at the face and neck (I proposed simulating this earlier in the thread by changing the way the knife works in PR). Like I said, you'd be better off using your helmet to beat them to death with, if you want a fast 'kill'.


I'm not trying to argue, Truism, I'm just trying to show what I mean. If you can stomach it have a look on theync.com or LiveLeak for some knife attacks, beheadings, etc - You'll see what I mean. There's a reason that you hear of people being killed with '47 knife wounds'. They can kill instantly, but it's unlikely.

'In a knife fight, one man bleeds, another man gushes.'

[Truism]

The issue again isn't with pilots having knives; this time it's actually with anyone having a knife that OHKs. I accept what you're saying - knives are less lethal and less commonly used in reality than video games. Unfortunately every single one of the arguments you're making is equally applicable to pilots knocking out armoured enemies with gloved fists in a few strikes. Pilots behind enemy lines certainly don't make a habit of boxing their way back to friendly lines.

At this juncture I'd like to point out that the conversation has fallen into a pointless cycle. There isn't good evidence for pilots doing much of anything but trying to hide while collecting food and water and trying to contact friendlies. That is the norm. All the other behaviour is interesting exceptions to the rule, which ironically means that the largest minority of pilot behaviour is pretty random and unique. As such, any model put forward is probably going to be tenuously supported by reality.

Why can pilots bail out at all? From my perspective, the most realistic solution is to kill them on bail out, not because 0 0 chairs don't work, but because out of all the possible gameplay options you have for a bailing pilot, not having a bailing pilot at all is the closest thing to a realistic scenario you can achieve.

[Mikemonster]

That's a good point and I think you're right, if they coudn't bail out we wouldn't have to simulate an unrealistic circumstance that will be exploited by a player wanting to do unrealistic things.

Agreed as well, my issue is with the one hit-kill-knife existing - In this case it's absurd that people are requesting the facility for pilots under a 'realism' banner (without also arguing the weapon should be realistic - compare it to the damage system of the rifles in-game).

And yes, the gist of my arguments is that it's far more realistic to knock someone out with a heavy blow to the head than to stab them like a ninja and have them fold over and die instantly like in a John Wayne SF film.

Nobody has given a single source backing up their desire for ninja-kill ability for the Pilot. As you mention, there isn't any good evidence for it's inclusion.

As for 'All the other behaviour is interesting exceptions to the rule', I presume you mean the SF guys who kill with knives. I'm sure they are trained to, and I'm sure some have and do, but it's not the same kettle of fish as a hungry, scared pilot desperately trying to avoid detection and/or any enemy presence. (I'd be interested to know how it's done and how commonly it's done actually, out of interest rather than related to this thread).

PR is generally tenuously supported to reality, but we all rationalise it's quirks and that's just fine - we have fun! But I can't stand people that back something up for the reason of 'realism' when it's not realistic, they've taken their rationalisation too far. If people said 'I want the knife for a pilot because it's fun and gives me something to do, despite being totally unrealistic as a representation of reality' then I'd have far less of a problem with it.

All the best mate, thanks for giving your reasoning on the subject.

[Truism]

The exceptions to the rules are pilots doing anything but hiding and trying to be rescued. Any examples of pilots doing something other than this are an exception. Unfortunately the game isn't really set up to cater for E&E, and PR hasn't been about hard realism for quite a while, it's been about engaging gameplay mechanics and aesthetic realism.

[fabioxxxx]

even my grandma carries a knife ...hehe

[Bringerof_D]

I think his source was Call of Duty 4, when "Deadly" and her Cobra was shot down in the town... She had an MP5 with her to repel enemy attacks lol

chopper pilots generally will have a carbine or other short barreled weapon with them for self defense as they are more likely to end up on the ground in enemy territory than a modern fighter pilot. I hope i don't need to post links to photos.

As per the OP. All weapons were removed from the pilot kit to prevent silly ninjas and paratroopers. As per using it to take out someone who's in your way. Chances are they'll hear you, turn around, and shoot you long before you get within knifing range, i'd suggest laying low and waiting for him to leave. Real soldiers, pilots or w/e they may be will not do this sort of silly thing. Self preservation at that point is priority number 1, if you can avoid engagement do so.

[Dogbox]

I hope in 1.0 pilots will have knives

[BloodyDeed]

It's a realistic suggestion and therefore I've added knives to pilots for 1.0.
Thanks for your effort, guys.

I already said that. Actually don't know why we are still discussing.

[Mikemonster]

Because a discussion has two sides and I have heard no sources to back up any cases of a knife being used offensively by a pilot ever in real life.

It is a tool, not a weapon.

In which case, we should include a fire-lighting magnesium stick.



If you think about it, you could kill someone with it if you did it in a certain way - therefore it should be available as a weapon.

I can prove that pilots are issued it in real life - Does this mean it will be included for realism?

[ExeTick]

Factsheets : Pilot Survival Equipment

I am pretty sure that is what they still have in there survival gear. no one said it was going to be used in offensive action.

someone need to take this less serious..

[Mikemonster]

Well, I've already explained this in the past regarding knives in PR but it got ignored..

The same people that want it for realism's sake probably don't realise that it's one-shot-kill ninja abilities aren't realistic.

Hate to point out the obvious but if pilots aren't going to use it in real life as a weapon why would you include it in the pilot's weapons in PR?

Nobody's provided any sources, lol.

[Pronck]

Mike , you made your point clear , now start playing PR.

[Spec]

What about reducing knife damage? Since we don't want to simulate special forces and knifes are rarely used offensively (by both pilots and other soldiers), I wonder why we don't simply reduce knife damage so it takes 3 stabs to take someone out. Would make that thing a lot less 'movie-like', without making it utterly useless. Same for bayonets, except for their longer range.

[Moszeusz6Pl]

Making knifes need few stab to kill somebody will make it completely useless. But I think that reducing damage a bit, so you need to hit enemy in head, to kill him instantly, or twice somewhere else will be interesting thing.

[Mikemonster]

I said that earlier.

You're right though Pronk, Exe, I will take a chill pill.