Havoc and WZ10

[Gracler]

Good pilots should not have the ability to dodge everything the enemy throw at you.... I like that the CAS has been made less overpowered and able to do crazy retreats or dives. It should not be a god-like vehicle it should just be support from the air... that can be killed easily by ground AA or vehicles with enough elevation on there barrel.

CAS can still work effectively if the ground spotters do there job right, but if the enemy is prepared no skilled pilots should be able to fly around like james bond avoiding everything.

The rock paper scissor BF system should still be present in PR or the matches will be lopsided game after game.

The new UAV system make's it so that commander can quickly get a total view over the battlefield and then the CAS can plan a blitz attack. When the enemy see the CAS and decide to turn all there weapons towards the sky the CAS should start to worry and if they didn't have an escape plan they would be taken out.

[Mora]

Ive got something to say about the missiles. They seem to be very hard to handle right now. See this video for reference.

Granted this is on water but i experienced the same on land as well.

[40mmrain]

yeah they need splash, the missile damage right now simply wont do, CAS choppers arent even threatening anymore if youre moving

[K4on]

Maybe just keep all the speeds like they were in 0.98 but make them dive like the tiger. So it's very very hard to pull out from a dive. It would greatly discourage diving, make engaging targets in a dive almost impossible but keep the horizontal/small angle attacks the most useful way to attack enemies.

this sounds like a plan.

[saXoni]

Jafar is it possible to get a changelog on what you've changed with the helicopters? I haven't flown them much during the beta, just three-four times the last two days. All in all I didn't really recognize much difference at all, but I guess that's just me being bad at recognizing changes?

[sirfstar]

First time i flew a havoc today felt like VN3 is twice as fast as havoc. Is it even able to reach irl max speed 320km/h in the dive at least? Climb rate is also seems too low.

[notmyingamename]

Ive got something to say about the missiles. They seem to be very hard to handle right now. See this video for reference.

Granted this is on water but i experienced the same on land as well.

good video. had a couple of instances like that, where it'd run off into cover and it was just easier to spend the hydra's after a few moment's letting the gunner try. on the other hand, it seemed like we were dropping tanks on every hit. those were direct shots of course, but tagging the apc's was a real challenge for the copilots

[viirusiiseli]

Gunship missiles don't need splash for armored vehicles... That's the gunners fault for missing since you can manually guide them, unlike the missiles on jets. It is not hard at all to score a direct hit with hellfires.

[notmyingamename]

Gunship missiles don't need splash for armored vehicles... That's the gunners fault for missing since you can manually guide them, unlike the missiles on jets. It is not hard at all to score a direct hit with hellfires.

that may be. i never had a chance to gun, so it's just my observation that they all were having trouble landing solid hits on anything smaller than a tank

[viirusiiseli]

that may be. i never had a chance to gun, so it's just my observation that they all were having trouble landing solid hits on anything smaller than a tank

Simple solution, bad gunners.

[Alex6714]

There does need to be a little splash. I can see the logic behind the direct hit, and I agree. However we are working with sometimes difficult netcode, almost no stabilisation and unique situations like the APC in the water, so I think just a minimal but deadly splash is the way to go to balance a little.

[Rhino]

There does need to be a little splash. I can see the logic behind the direct hit, and I agree. However we are working with sometimes difficult netcode, almost no stabilisation and unique situations like the APC in the water, so I think just a minimal but deadly splash is the way to go to balance a little.

Ye this is currently what we are thinking too, with we still want to reward direct hits with a kill, but also make very near misses causing significant damage, but nothing like previous versions where the missile could land 10m from an APC and destroy it

[paul161616]

thought i may as well put my two cents in, i only flew the wz-10 and in my opinion the changes to handling are generally good, there was a small issue with gaining speed when needing to retreat. i thought that doing tight turns when you get a tone felt just the right amount of bulky, remember guys its a heli, not a jet. another issue i had was landing, the wheels want to torque forward when trying to land making emergency landings on the pad pretty difficult. all in all the changes jafar made to the physics i think is definitely a step in the right direction, gunships and attack helos are being used as they would in r/l now, instead of the diving, indestructable killing machines theyve become

[Inspektura43]

Well afaik you can still dive in 1.0 just people dont do it because it takes too much time to gain altitude etc.
It would be way more effective to make all the gunships "stall" like the tiger when diving and bring back their old speeds or atleast the fast manouver ability.
During the 1.0 beta the helis felt heavier (mean slower not so manouverable) like in vBF2.

Also would be good to increase the hellfire splash damage a bit so situations like in the video posted above dont happen too often.
Thanks.

[viirusiiseli]

Well afaik you can still dive in 1.0 just people dont do it because it takes too much time to gain altitude etc.
It would be way more effective to make all the gunships "stall" like the tiger when diving and bring back their old speeds or atleast the fast manouver ability.
During the 1.0 beta the helis felt heavier (mean slower not so manouverable) like in vBF2.

Also would be good to increase the hellfire splash damage a bit so situations like in the video posted above dont happen too often.
Thanks.

True, diving in a sense was removed but really not completely. The tiger physics would indeed remove it mostly. Speeds and altitude gaining capabilities were good on 0.98 but only thing that needed removing was diving.

Though I disagree on the hellfire splash part. Helicopters are the easiest way to get a direct hit with a missile and thus should not have splash for armored vehicles. Only for things like a HMMWV, BRDM or VN3 and lower should get damaged from an indirect hit. The pilot simply needs to fly steadier and gunner has to be more precise.

[yellodeath]

True, diving in a sense was removed but really not completely. The tiger physics would indeed remove it mostly. Speeds and altitude gaining capabilities were good on 0.98 but only thing that needed removing was diving.

Though I disagree on the hellfire splash part. Helicopters are the easiest way to get a direct hit with a missile and thus should not have splash for armored vehicles. Only for things like a HMMWV, BRDM or VN3 and lower should get damaged from an indirect hit. The pilot simply needs to fly steadier and gunner has to be more precise.

I agree about the missiles, the hellfires shouldnt reward missing 10 times in a row, the direct hits are not hard to get especially now considering how easy it is to hover an attack helo

If you have trouble scoring direct hits it's either you, the pilot, or you. It's extremely easy to point and click a hellfire to a large target like a tank, and mop up infantry with cannon in 1.0, the attack helos are basically airborne TOWs with APC functionality

[Rhino]

Right I'll start a poll to see what everyone thinks as its clear there is a bit of a divide here.

EDIT: here you go: https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f254-v ... amage.html

[viirusiiseli]

There does need to be a little splash. I can see the logic behind the direct hit, and I agree. However we are working with sometimes difficult netcode, almost no stabilisation and unique situations like the APC in the water, so I think just a minimal but deadly splash is the way to go to balance a little.

What if I told you, that you don't need stabilization, but a pilot who flies steady. And also you don't need hellfire splash for killing a vehicle in the water, you just need to get a good mouse and a steady hand.

I seriously don't understand how anyone can have a problem hitting a vehicle with a helicopter hellfire it's basically the same as asking for tank AP rounds to have splash. Only real problem I see is with jet AT missiles. You can not get direct hits with them like you can with helis.

Ofcourse helicopter hellfires not having large splash for infantry is very annoying due to cannon being useless after you exceed 100 ping. It'd be a great way for leveling the effectiveness of gunning for different pinged players. Eventhough it would be a great help to have larger splash for infantry with hellfires OR cannon I don't think there's gonna be any change there since it's not realistic.

[Mongolian_dude]

What if I told you, that you don't need stabilization, but a pilot who flies steady. And also you don't need hellfire splash for killing a vehicle in the water, you just need to get a good mouse and a steady hand.

I seriously don't understand how anyone can have a problem hitting a vehicle with a helicopter hellfire it's basically the same as asking for tank AP rounds to have splash. Only real problem I see is with jet AT missiles. You can not get direct hits with them like you can with helis.

Ofcourse helicopter hellfires not having large splash for infantry is very annoying due to cannon being useless after you exceed 100 ping. It'd be a great way for leveling the effectiveness of gunning for different pinged players. Eventhough it would be a great help to have larger splash for infantry with hellfires OR cannon I don't think there's gonna be any change there since it's not realistic.

What you are insinuating is that you need an excellent gunner and a good pilot to make an ordinary shot. I'm sure you know lots about helicopters, Viirus, so I won't bore you with the details. We are trying to represent the lethality that modern attack helicopters possess against armoured vehicles, making sure that its also conducive to good gameplay.

We firstly have to recognise that not everyone, or perhaps even half of PR players, have natural ability or the experience to perform these shots on the necessary basis to achieve this level of lethality. That, coupled with the limitations of the BF2 engine, mean we have to make compromises. In this instance, it is splash damage.
Ineffective missiles will see players unrealistically spamming 6 missiles to destroy a VN3, and since we had decided that our munitions need be some impotent, we will have to accept this and double the number of missiles to match unrealistic loadouts with this sketchy gameplay.

If a LZRed Tank is not destroyed by a LZR targeted ATGM (as I have witnessed several times in the Beta), then you can't expect players firing them manually to achieve any decent results.



...mongol...

[TheSilencer]

I trust the guided missle over the Laze because the laze has failed me many times before. As an average chopper gunner, hitting a stationary target is an easy task to accomplish, as long as the pilot can provide a window of opportunity to fire. Lazed targets are not trustworthy about 50% of the time.