Medic kit rework

[Lugi]

With the introduction of 100p servers the overall count of medics increased, as the number of these kits per squad doubled, so now every one out of four soldier is a medic. That's a really gamebreaking change for me, as I always considered the medic kit to be very toxic to gameplay and immersion. The changes I propose are That's why I propose these changes to make it less irritating to deal with, and to spread

1. Give EVERY soldier the ability to "revive" a wounded teammate.

This one can only work as intended when coupled with suggestion no.2. I put the word "revive" in quotes, because in this case the term is going to change its meaning, from what it is now - bringing a heavy injured soldier back to consciousness with an adrenaline shot, to a new one - helping a downed teammate stand up. I find this a pretty good alternative to dragging, as it basically serves the same purpose - helping a downed friendly. After the "revive" the soldier can use his patch to stop bleeding. Also the soldier should be given small (3-4 minutes) window of blurry screen (suppresion-like), so he won't be fully operational.

2. Make soldiers more vulnerable to damage

What I mean is basically one hit to the body - you go down to the "wounded" state, one hit to the arm or leg - you go black & white, so your fighting capability is very low. I hate to see a clear hit on the enemy through scope and watch him run back like nothing ever happened. One of the worst things in game IMO. I've played plenty of PR this week, only as infantry. I've gone through a couple of long range firefights between two squads, and they all looked the same - front line of rifles shooting at the enemy squad, medics on the back in cover. As soon as anyone got shot he just ran back to medics, heal up and go back to shooting. One time I've been shot like 4 or 5 times in 3 minute firefight, but who cares about being shot, medics were there to take care of me. Moments like that are truly anti-fun for me.


3. Make downed people vulnerable to enemy fire

Right now being wounded is far too safe. Almost nothing can touch you. There was already a plenty of suggestions on how to resolve this issue, and the most counter arguments were about how finishing wounded soldiers is immoral, against ROE, and how it shouldn't be introduced to PR. However people who wrote that failed to see one basic thing - the difference between being critically wounded in PR and in real life. The logic behind finishing wounded being immoral is that they posses no threat to you, nor they will ever again (or at least for a pretty long time). In PR however a downed soldier is still a threat as soon as he gets stabbed with magicpen.


Let me know what you think about this.


Edit #1
Some changes I didn't mention.

Wounded state timer should be tweaked as well, from 5 minutes, like it is now, to 2-3 mins. And the values of hp after "revive" and usage of personal bandage should give the player about 5 minutes to get medical attention, before bleeding out.

[Spec]

Okay, let's give this a shot. Be constructive, guys. And yeah, we've had plenty of medic suggestions before, but this one looks original and well put, so here goes.

I actually thought about making field dressings work like epipens before. I didn't take the idea seriously enough to suggest it to the team, but since you just had the same idea, with some additions, maybe it isn't all that silly.

Discuss.

[nAyo]

1. Give EVERY soldier the ability to "revive" a wounded teammate.

This one can only work as intended when coupled with suggestion no.2. I put the word "revive" in quotes, because in this case the term is going to change its meaning, from what it is now - bringing a heavy injured soldier back to consciousness with an adrenaline shot, to a new one - helping a downed teammate stand up. I find this a pretty good alternative to dragging, as it basically serves the same purpose - helping a downed friendly. After the "revive" the soldier can use his patch to stop bleeding. Also the soldier should be given small (3-4 minutes) window of blurry screen so, he won't be fully operational.

Please, do not ever do something like this. This is a terrible idea just because it makes the medic almost useless. PR is a game with many special kits so the interest is to give every kit its special role and unique power or ability. If you think a squad's medic is the most anti-fun element of the game (as you explained there https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f252-p ... -game.html) just go kill him so he can't do anything which you would qualify of "overpowered".

I play 247 medic, never anything else, and it's pretty obvious that you rarely do considering how you seem to dislike them. I do believe that it is not a very objective opinion

[Lugi]

Please, do not ever do something like this. This is a terrible idea just because it makes the medic almost useless. PR is a game with many special kits so the interest is to give every kit its special role and unique power or ability.

Medic will still be the only one able to heal wounded soldiers, or help them when they get stuck (which happens pretty often). I think that's enough unique abilities as for one kit. This change would also make a medic's life a lot easier, because then he would only heal people, instead of reviving and healing, so that's a one less task for a guy who's already very busy.

[Elirah]

Best Suggestion EVER (well its a good one).

However, if you can finish wounded soldiers, make it pretty hard, so there is a chance you can be revived somehow.

[Archosaurus]

How about just making a revived soldier be combat-ineffective for about 5 minutes or so at ranges above 50m. No more magical reviving of the whole squad to come back and shoot you in the *** but squads can still be brought back up. Or just instill some kind of lasting minor damage effecting combat efficiency, until you get to a crate or FOB, so that fighting would be possible but fighting on equal terms after reviving the whole squad would not be possible.

[Death!]

I like these suggestions! Would stop people from throwing grenades on friendly dead bodies too, plus making the medic work way easier. Maybe put a penalty on who shot dead bodies? Like 5 minutes no special kits or something.

[SUGNAT]

I think this is a good idea, but make the 'wounded' soldier have a state that's a mix between 'Black & White' and suppression?

And I swear bodies already take damage when wounded? I've lost count of the times my bodies been under high explosives or even sustained fire and my timer runs out before its time?

[Lugi]

I like these suggestions! Would stop people from throwing grenades on friendly dead bodies too, plus making the medic work way easier. Maybe put a penalty on who shot dead bodies? Like 5 minutes no special kits or something.

I don't really think there should be a penalty. In reality there is a reason why soldiers are not finishing critically wounded enemies when given a chance. It is because the wounding a soldier, instead of killing him takes away from fighting not only that individual, but also a couple of others who have to help him, while a dead grunt is the only impairment to his forces. That's why I suggested this fighting incapability for a few minutes after a revive. I wanted people to have the incentive to wound the enemy soldier, and not to pop him as soon as possible.

I think this is a good idea, but make the 'wounded' soldier have a state that's a mix between 'Black & White' and suppression?

Yeah, that's what I've been thinking of. But it should be made in the way suppression is done, cause black and white effect is not present for me anymore (it used to be for quite a while).

And I swear bodies already take damage when wounded? I've lost count of the times my bodies been under high explosives or even sustained fire and my timer runs out before its time?

You are right, the explosive damage, from grenades to tank rounds, can make you "dead-dead".

[saXoni]

1. Give EVERY soldier the ability to "revive" a wounded teammate.

This one can only work as intended when coupled with suggestion no.2. I put the word "revive" in quotes, because in this case the term is going to change its meaning, from what it is now - bringing a heavy injured soldier back to consciousness with an adrenaline shot, to a new one - helping a downed teammate stand up. I find this a pretty good alternative to dragging, as it basically serves the same purpose - helping a downed friendly. After the "revive" the soldier can use his patch to stop bleeding. Also the soldier should be given small (3-4 minutes) window of blurry screen so, he won't be fully operational.

There is a slight possibility that I've misunderstood this, but I think I got it.

As of now there are already medics that don't know when it's safe to revive. I have been revived so many times when there are still enemies in the area that are able to kill me as soon as I'm up. Right now there's a chance that there are 18 of these (9 squads, 2 per squad) medics reviving people without making sure it's safe first.

If this suggestion goes through there will be ~50 people that have the option to revive people. Sure, reviving a fellow teammate that's been critically wounded is nice, but it's very often done at the completely wrong time. I for one would hate to see 50 people being able to make stupid revives, as we've already got enough of them to worry about.

Please do correct me if I misunderstood your point of that paragraph.

[PFunk]

Well I can tell you that in any Arma PvP scenario there ain't a single person playing who won't give a wounded enemy the coup de gras because having them wake up and shoot you in the back is just not kosher.

I like this idea, because the typical PR mentality of a firefight is that you can wipe out all but one guy and then you have to babysit the corpses to ensure somebody doesn't get the medic kit who's been hiding in the bushes, that or just waste all your grenades. This also negates a lot of the benefits of winning a firefight. You lose your momentum and initiative by having to stay behind rather than move up swiftly through this gap that exists in the line for only as long as those wound timers prevent giving up.

I know that Arma comparisons can be tacky and smack of excessive milsim, but ACE wounds does a pretty smash up job of making a wounded soldier a major burden on your combat effectiveness. In PR all that happens is you hide behind a tree, get rubbed against a hip satchel full of pixie dust, and voila all those tactical errors are wiped away. Feels like cheating.

The medic has really moved forward the least in all this time when you think about it. I expect no less than a full on Sadr City Morsi protest against any changes but it could really make ranged combat decisive for a change.

[curahee150]

I think maybe when black and white you "collapse" and a friendly can get you back on your feet to get to a medic or you can crawl to one if he's close, but if your critically wounded only a medic can get you up with epipens, or in place of the 9 button a friendly can "drag" them to a medic.( or maybe not)

[Lugi]

As of now there are already medics that don't know when it's safe to revive. I have been revived so many times when there are still enemies in the area that are able to kill me as soon as I'm up.

The mistake you've made is that you didn't take the third paragraph into account. With it's proposed change, you will not be perfectly safe while wounded anymore. So there will be no thing as a bad or a stupid revive

[Raic]

I don't see anything here that would affect gameplay positively. As Immersion is subjective its not a reason even worth considering. I won't support any changes that passivise gameplay and this one as whole would cause exactly that. I think the the current release has hit the sweet spot for the effectiveness of offensive and defensive doctrine, and all changes suggested here would tip that scale towards defensive superiority.

If you are unable to kill your target that means you are not assaulting their positions. Defending is very effective strategy in PR, but it has the drawback that enemy tickets won't be drained as fast as they could be if you made successful assault. It also allows your enemy to be in control of your immediate surroundings, but good defense can grind enemy progress to a halt. Being offensive on the other hand has the danger of utter annihilation of squad and danger of counter-attack from the enemy. But as said before, successful offensive will grind enemy tickets faster and gain you more territory to maneuver on.

EDIT: I would rather shorten the time Medic has to revive so it would need to be done in combat or immediately after. Also would lengthen the after revive timer a lot and make it resettable by firebase or crate. This would allow quite interesting methods to be worked on to keeping squad alive. One medic reviving while the other keeps patching them so they won't die, but not quite healing everyone as revives need to happen if the squad wants to stay together.

[Lugi]

I won't support any changes that passivise gameplay and this one as whole would cause exactly that. I think the the current release has hit the sweet spot for the effectiveness of offensive and defensive doctrine, and all changes suggested here would tip that scale towards defensive superiority.

Let's take a look at that. The defender usually has a lot of hard cover, which allows him to remain protected most of the time. Even when he gets hit he can just fall back to his medic and get back to full health in no time. That's exactly what was happening today when I was playing Iron Ridge as British forces. My squad was defending in one of these tall buildings, on the last floor. I was getting into little firefights with enemy trying to advance into area we were defending. It was pretty easy to fight them back, as every time I got shot, I just ran back to medic and heal up, which took me about 10-15 seconds (with running). It must have really sucked to be the attacker there. I mean you directly hit a guy who's blocking your advance and he just sprints back inside and comes back to his post in 10 seconds, when he ought to be eliminated from the fight.

If you are unable to kill your target that means you are not assaulting their positions. .

With proposed changes killing (or should I say eliminating) the enemy would come easier than ever.

[Raic]

Let's take a look at that. The defender usually has a lot of hard cover, which allows him to remain protected most of the time. Even when he gets hit he can just fall back to his medic and get back to full health in no time. That's exactly what was happening today when I was playing Iron Ridge as British forces. My squad was defending in one of these tall buildings, on the last floor. I was getting into little firefights with enemy trying to advance into area we were defending. It was pretty easy to fight them back, as every time I got shot, I just ran back to medic and heal up, which took me about 10-15 seconds (with running). It must have really sucked to be the attacker there. I mean you directly hit a guy who's blocking your advance and he just sprints back inside and comes back to his post in 10 seconds, when he ought to be eliminated from the fight.

And what did this incompetent squad do as they tried to "attack" you? Did they manouver to your flank? Did they use combination of smoke and grenades? Did they use ropes? What did their team do? Did they have any assets? How were artillery or mortars used? What was their primary approach?

Honestly you have not given any content to whatsoever if the enemy simply was not incompetent. And again, all these proportions would make defending even easier.

With proposed changes killing (or should I say eliminating) the enemy would come easier than ever.

Also, I forgot to add there, but if you are not walking over the bodies of your enemies, you don't deserve the kill.

I do think however that direct hits from some heavier weaponry should kill, not wound.

[Lugi]

And what did this incompetent squad do as they tried to "attack" you? Did they manouver to your flank? Did they use combination of smoke and grenades? Did they use ropes? What did their team do? Did they have any assets? How were artillery or mortars used? What was their primary approach?.

Can't really say what they did and what they didn't, but I know for sure they hadn't eliminated me, which they should have done if they wanted to get any closer to the flag.

And after all, it's the attacker who benefits from momentum, not the defender. Any prolonged fight puts the assaulting side at disadvantage. With proposed changes you can't just come back to fight after you've been shot, so the fights will decide faster than before.
I fail to see how that promotes defensive playstyle.

[waldov]

I like the whole concept but as i said before it might be stretching it in terms of the work required and the limits of the BF2 engine. Also as mentioned by someone else this could make the medic kit quite useless so maybe there needs to be an inclination to be medic still.

[UTurista]

1. Give EVERY soldier the ability to "revive" a wounded teammate.

Don't Agree, I as a squad Leader want my soldiers to fight and only 1-2 guys reviving people. This would make people stop firing just to revive the guy on their right.

Medics should be the only ones to have the magic pen.

2. Make soldiers more vulnerable to damage

Proper damage would be nice but BF2 engine can't handle and pushing the damage can be against game play.
For instance IRL or MilSims you can lean or shoot without aiming to supress, but in PR you can't, the only way to do it is stand up/crouch and try and suppress while a 2nd guy gets an aim shot. While doing this is imperative that the damage allows some hits before going lethal.


Also standard FPS if you increase bullet damage you need to reduce ping.

3. Make downed people vulnerable to enemy fire

YES please YES, but I would say to knifes only to simulate the area under control. If we get a distant kill, the wounded man should be reviveble no matter the amount of bullets put on his "corpse".

[ShockUnitBlack]

Get rid of the bag and add more patches, to simulate limited medical supplies. That is all.