Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post your feedback on the current Project Reality release (including SinglePlayer).
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Do you think the removal of binocs was a good idea in terms of gameplay?

Poll ended at 2013-10-19 00:17

Yes, nothing should be changed, keep it the way it is
80
47%
Binos should be accessible to more kits
34
20%
They should only stay removed for scoped kits
19
11%
Most/every kit should have binoculars, but certain kits should have more powerful magnifications
10
6%
It's always been an important gameplay feature that we can't get rid of at all; ie. for any kit
26
15%
 
Total votes: 169

nAyo
Posts: 571
Joined: 2008-10-29 22:07

Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by nAyo »

[ 1.0beta feedback thread here : only 47% entirely in favor of the change]

# Gameplay convenience
As many people used as an argument in favor of this change, it might indeed not be 100% realistic and I think we will all agree with it since all soldiers don't have binos in war time. But it's all about gameplay improvements : for example you can't take off with a chopper in one minute though it's how it works on PR, waiting 10 mins would be completely out of the gameplay we're looking for on PR ; same for epipens which are quite a lot unrealistic, and so on, there is an infinite amount of similar examples since PR remains a video game showing off something virtual.

I have been playing PR a lot since I started, always as medic in infantry. I'm therefor not that used to scoped weapons, and when I'm in a squad I use my binos almost everytime to look around, confirm targets and stuff and I think after all those years I can say I'm a pretty experienced medic. Not like I kill everyone and get many kills but I know my job and my personal experience has shown me how important binos are for a medic to simply have a better chance of surviving.
This is obviously all personal, but I'm pretty sure people will have all other kind of personal experiences that are going to confirm how binos are required most of the time.

Scoped players (even simple scoped riflemen) have the ability to zoom in even a little bit which is a massive advantage, thus no binos for them would be fair enough, though unscoped players lack this and I think this is where the problem is.


# Real life eye-focus transcription in video games
In real life our eyes can focus which increases sharpness of the observed spot and it allows us to see it better. When it comes to video game graphism it is like having an infinite dynamic resolution, which is quite obviously not the case on PR. So how does one do for games? they find an alternative : on Arma they have an eye-zoom which is there to "simulate" the real life eye focus since it offers more pixels to depict further things, in order to allow players to see them more accurately.

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Would you be able to tell if the red thing is a random bush or a guy? In real life in such a situation, one would be able to know if that thing on top is a soldier or a bush because it's not limited to a couple of pixels. Broadly speaking, 10 pixels is not enough to make such a difference while 100 pixels is enough :

Image

Image

Zoomed in and out.


It's the same problem on this :

Image

Impossible to tell what it is on the carrier while IRL we could clearly see two hueys because the resolution is too poor.
So you should be able to actually make that difference by zooming in since in real life it'd be done easily with automatic eye-focus. Thus binos would be required in such a situation to simulate that ability that soldiers would have in real life and NOT because they would use them in real life.


You guys have always been doing an awesome job and I couldn't wait for this 1.0 to be released, this game has been my favorite game ever and I feel like it will never stop entertaining me, but to be honest you DEV guys should really take long-time players' point of view more into consideration regarding gameplay stuff.

Once again I'm not blaming you for changing that, I just feel like gameplay improvement is something that can only be judged by as many experienced (by this I mean people who know quite a bit of PR) players as possible, which forms the main part of our community, and not only by a couple of DEVs and testers.

In my opinion maps/vehicles/factions/weapons can be tested by a few people, gameplay can't, it has to be a global community judgement and selection.

To sum it up?: binos are super important in term of gameplay on PR since they've always been part of the game and have always been available on all kits. If you guys remove them because IRL not everyone has them it is quite of an irrelevant argument since it is still a game, then you might as well remove epipens because they don't revive everyone in real life. Furthermore, real people have the ability to focus their eyes to "increase resolution" which is not possible on PR. Therefor if you'd really want the game to be realistic regarding this topic you'd need an alternative to this eye-focus, which has been, in my opinion, fairly simulated by binos so far, so what is the point in removing them?


Waiting for more feedback now :)
Last edited by nAyo on 2013-08-20 00:22, edited 1 time in total.
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"I, for one, am not a dictator. I'm the Supreme Leader" - Master
DNA9881
Posts: 68
Joined: 2011-07-14 00:37

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by DNA9881 »

More specifically, the Taliban Combat Engi. How can you watch ur IEDs without binos!
CastleBravo
Posts: 577
Joined: 2009-02-01 00:48

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by CastleBravo »

No binos is the same problem as no "magnification" on iron sights. The game FOV is something like 90 degrees (at least for me with a widescreen), but my monitor only takes up ~45 degrees of my field of vision. I could sit uncomfortably close to my screen but then I run into the problem of individual pixels becoming enormous.

ARMA deals with this problem by giving the player the ability to "zoom in".

Binoculars could be replaced with an unarmed "spotting" weapon where you can go from the current 0.5x magnification to 1.0x

Better yet, give that capability to non-magnified weapon sights along with the ability to switch between 0.5x and 1.0x using the new BUIS toggle functionality.
Kerryburgerking
Posts: 407
Joined: 2011-11-01 10:42

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by Kerryburgerking »

DNA9881 wrote:More specifically, the Taliban Combat Engi. How can you watch ur IEDs without binos!
Mark them?
nAyo
Posts: 571
Joined: 2008-10-29 22:07

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by nAyo »

Binoculars could be replaced with an unarmed "spotting" weapon where you can go from the current 0.5x magnification to 1.0x

Better yet, give that capability to non-magnified weapon sights along with the ability to switch between 0.5x and 1.0x using the new BUIS toggle functionality.
I agree, the problem would be that it's not really realistic so just giving binos back to everyone would be the solution. It is a realistic way to depict how it'd be in reality.
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Kerryburgerking
Posts: 407
Joined: 2011-11-01 10:42

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by Kerryburgerking »

Conventional AA, AT and Marksman kit should have them.
007.SirBond
Posts: 276
Joined: 2012-12-12 05:03

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by 007.SirBond »

DNA9881 wrote:More specifically, the Taliban Combat Engi. How can you watch ur IEDs without binos!
^^

I would prefer to have binoculars over the stone markers, those things are completely useless and unnecessary the sand color on the IEDs are too bright, it stands out the majority of the time.
SterrUwe321
Posts: 80
Joined: 2011-06-28 10:14

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by SterrUwe321 »

All kits should have them.
Maybe just reduce the zoom a bit.
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Arab
PR:BF2 Developer
Posts: 2898
Joined: 2012-05-18 03:37

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by Arab »

I liked the Old Binos, the ones that are two-retinas instead of one. One just feels awkward.
Hurricane
Posts: 167
Joined: 2008-04-27 11:31

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by Hurricane »

Kerryburgerking wrote:Conventional AA, AT and Marksman kit should have them.
Agreed. Medic and alternative AR and/or Machine Gunner (if unscoped) maybe too.
Arab wrote:I liked the Old Binos, the ones that are two-retinas instead of one. One just feels awkward.
Yeah, but if you look through binoculars IRL it's just like that.
Adalaxy
Posts: 103
Joined: 2013-03-05 00:09

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by Adalaxy »

I feel without the binoc movement techniques are more important now. Besides with "usually" more people playing than before 1.0 it easier to spot all the movement.
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nAyo
Posts: 571
Joined: 2008-10-29 22:07

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by nAyo »

There isn't only the "it is unrealistic because all soldiers don't have binos bla bla" argument that comes into this debate, there is also what I mentioned in the original post which is game rendering not depicting reality properly.

You guys pull off the realism argument, but going this way if you guys want to make the game more realistic, then you'd have to give people the ability to focus their vision just like they do in real life right? therefor removing binoculars would be anti-realism. QED?

Yes, we all know that all soldiers IRL don't have binoculars, it's not part of my arguments. Being able to have a similar view to a real soldier is something that matters in a FPS supposed to be as realistic as possible.
Last edited by nAyo on 2013-08-21 00:03, edited 2 times in total.
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"I, for one, am not a dictator. I'm the Supreme Leader" - Master
aI2seNIc
Posts: 50
Joined: 2006-07-22 07:49

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by aI2seNIc »

nAyo wrote:binos are super important in term of gameplay on PR since they've always been part of the game and have always been available on all kits.
hooo yeah please , binos for most kits !
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ghostfool84
Posts: 503
Joined: 2009-10-17 11:38

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by ghostfool84 »

I think binos on Kits with no scopes is a good idea. Its hard to get a clue whats around you without scope or binos and in many situations youre just useless. Youre not even able to supress because you cant see shit, and so you end hiding all the time in a firefight not able to do something useful.
Yeah sure there are maybe areas to cover, but you can only cover cqb areas and thats not necessary in many cases. You cant even cover a direction where you can look far, you cant see if a marksman is aiming at you or you getting lazed from this direction because the enemy is one pixel hiding in a bush. I think most people who voted "no binos" rarely play a class without scope and when only muttrah/cqb..
Last edited by ghostfool84 on 2013-08-21 12:41, edited 2 times in total.
nAyo
Posts: 571
Joined: 2008-10-29 22:07

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by nAyo »

I think most people who voted "no binos" rarely play a class without scope and when only muttrah/cqb...
Fairly sure of it!
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Predator.v2
Posts: 379
Joined: 2010-01-26 13:49

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by Predator.v2 »

You should stop being a bad loser. You started the vote and you should accept, that many guys actually like this change.
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nAyo
Posts: 571
Joined: 2008-10-29 22:07

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by nAyo »

Predator.v2 wrote:You should stop being a bad loser. You started the vote and you should accept, that many guys actually like this change.
It's 50/50 for your information in case you did not notice, I'm not being a bad loser since there is no loser.

It's obvious that a lot of people never play with unscoped weapons and therefor don't care about binos removal.
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"I, for one, am not a dictator. I'm the Supreme Leader" - Master
ghostfool84
Posts: 503
Joined: 2009-10-17 11:38

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by ghostfool84 »

Vote is vote, i dont think that DEVs get to serious about votes in the forum, but you can get a general idea what people think about certain changes.
I dont have a problem that there a no Binos, but no Binos and no Scopes is a bad combination especially on big Maps.
=-=kittykiller
Posts: 282
Joined: 2012-02-12 18:43

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by =-=kittykiller »

its bullshit to lay a mine then have to watch for a familiar land mark to detonate it from, makes areas with no landmarks nightmare to use ieds on.

With regards to blufor v redfor id say that no binos doesnt matter at all, if u want a scope on a big map like vadso u just choose the scoped weapon if its a small map like muttrah u choose unscope simple.

i think its a good dynamic between two conventional armies, to force scope or unscope especialy with the Back up sights on alot of weapons.

blufor v redfor GOOD

blufor v ins give all militia binos combat engineer included.

there is no problem here i feel i play on 15.6 inch screen laptop, yeah i didnt stop playing like i said i just slowed down and chose under 50 player under 2km maps with processor lasso
qubolo
Posts: 59
Joined: 2010-12-01 23:54

Re: Binoculars Removal Feedback

Post by qubolo »

Didn't we have that discussion before? it's not only the realism feature, it is also a gameplay improvement in terms of teamplay.
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