The issue with immediate assets on maps

[ComradeHX]

Yes, mechanized infantry is the way to go IMO, it's not only teamwork but it is fun to see an INF squad rolling in Fallujah or Muttrah with APC support. But right now that doesn't work too well because:
1. There's too many heavy assets
2. The assets are really easy to kill and have almost no fear factor to the enemy

That results in their crew choosing to sit back on a hill where they can see the entire city and snipe enemy infantry from far, leaving the infantry squads alone in the city, which does work, but IMO doesn't fit in PR.

My suggestion is to reduce heavy assets on such maps and have more light vehicles (humvee, panther etc.) and medium vehicles (stryker, btr with the normal gun) so that they can support the infantry instead of going hunting for the other team's armor.
But also keep assets on the known asset maps such as kashan etc because from time to time it will get boring to only play as INF.

Assets are not easy to kill unless with hat kit which is very limited.

HATO apc can take rpg shots in *** and drive back to base.

Tanks are supposed to kill other team's tanks before supporting infantry, otherwise they would be caught loading HE while enemy tank kill them.

Medium apc need nerf to armor.

The reason armoured vehicles do not go into cities is because city is death to armour. It's true irl and in game.

[PatrickLA_CA]

Yes but combine HAT, TOW and other Armor and you get too much asset hunting, which is fine, but not for some maps which are more suitable for INF and MECHINF combat.

This is when you combine overly good CAS squad with immediate spawning Havoc (Beirut)

They dominated the game until we capped the last flag (then they got shot down but game ended shortly)





I highly doubt this would've happened IF the Havoc spawned 12 minutes later as usual: IDF would've had enough time to deploy multiple AA's and things.

Knowing the crew of that CAS squad, those 12 minutes won't really matter.

[AFsoccer]

This is when you combine overly good CAS squad with immediate spawning Havoc (Beirut)

They dominated the game until we capped the last flag (then they got shot down but game ended shortly)





I highly doubt this would've happened IF the Havoc spawned 12 minutes later as usual: IDF would've had enough time to deploy multiple AA's and things.

I changed the AAS64 layer so that the Havok doesn't spawn until the Russians cap their first flag. You'll see this change after the next update.

[MADsqirrel]

I changed the AAS64 layer so that the Havok doesn't spawn until the Russians cap their first flag. You'll see this change after the next update.

Can we do the same to other insta-CAS-spawn maps?
I know silent alt the Germans can start with 2 Tigers and Shikotan (no idea what layouts) starts with hind.
Especially hard if you play INS.
Can't think of other maps now.

[Inspektura43]

Yea lets make PR even more noob friendly, lets also remove every asset from every map, lets add DO NOT RUSH ANY FLAGS rules.
Why not add an ROE rule to every server and ban everybody who shoots his gun.
People should learn how to play this game and not beg for new rules and asset changes.
We are not playing Arma 2 scenarios after all.

[Rabbit]

Can we do the same to other insta-CAS-spawn maps?
I know silent alt the Germans can start with 2 Tigers and Shikotan (no idea what layouts) starts with hind.
Especially hard if you play INS.
Can't think of other maps now.

Just played shikotan 32, where you get a hind, and we (Russia) lost. Not to mention militia get extra Vehicle depots, several AA stations, and arty guns on the hill and fast access to 2 of the flags with the 3rd causing a bleed. If anything, the layer with the hind is in favor of militia.

[PatrickLA_CA]

It's not a problem when the asset spawns, it's how it's used and what is done to not get killed by it.

[Murphy]

There are very few cases in which an asset is present and its counter measure is not. CAS spawns at the start but AA emplacements can be built at any point in the round, you might not get as much time as you would like but that is the nature of round starts - everyone is rushing to get set up.

There are a few maps that do present little in the way of counter balance. The other night I played a round of Arctic Lion (alt layer I believe) and the Dutch are given a CAS jet and an attack chopper as well as an AAV leaving the Russians with a Havoc and an AAV is rather unbalance...but this is not particularly relevant to the immediate spawning issue. I think the issue here is the assets countering the CAS, and I believe that point is indeed relevant to this topic. If one team has overwhelming CAS or Armour the other team should be given a clear counter to the assets. Keeping A symmetrical balance isn't always easy but that's why feedback threads are important.

[Beee8190]

Yea lets make PR even more noob friendly, lets also remove every asset from every map, lets add DO NOT RUSH ANY FLAGS rules.
Why not add an ROE rule to every server and ban everybody who shoots his gun.

You have completely missed any point made so far in this thread. Nobody has been suggesting removing assets X or Y but merely deleyng their spawn. The matter that competitive servers implementing rules like ''no rushing'' is self explanatory as they can see how damaging this is to the gameplay and to the mod itself.

People should learn how to play this game and not beg for new rules and asset changes. We are not playing Arma 2 scenarios after all.

Or maybe its you who needs to learn how to play after all. One just doesn't steam roll into some country on 5 minute notice without meeting any resistance and defences being in place and make it all the way to the capital 10 minutes after. Infantry must be given a chance to fight by smart use of assets available to them and not rely solely on morons who happen to be the first creating a tank squad


[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Rabbit;2019871']Just played shikotan 32, where you get a hind, and we (Russia) lost. Not to mention militia get extra Vehicle depots, several AA stations, and arty guns on the hill and fast access to 2 of the flags with the 3rd causing a bleed. If anything, the layer with the hind is in favor of militia.

[/quote]

This shows that Militia can win but it very much depends on how good the players are, rather than how assets are balanced.

[quote="PatrickLA_CA""]It's not a problem when the asset spawns, it's how it's used and what is done to not get killed by it.[/quote]


Well thank you for the generic answer

but no, it is problem of when assets spawn

.

[sirfstar]

Or maybe its you who needs to learn how to play after all. One just doesn't steam roll into some country on 5 minute notice without meeting any resistance and defences being in place and make it all the way to the capital 10 minutes after. Infantry must be given a chance to fight by smart use of assets available to them and not rely solely on morons who happen to be the first creating a tank squad

You just said that the cas crew should not kill anyone until they setup any defense didn't you? That's sounds just stupid.

Isn't it stinger no-sound lock bug allows cas to do anything at beirut?

[Psyrus]

You just said that the cas crew should not kill anyone until they setup any defense didn't you? That's sounds just stupid.

Isn't it stinger no-sound lock bug allows cas to do anything at beirut?

No, he said the maps should be laid out in such a way that the situation he detailed above doesn't happen. Not sure if you were being deliberately dense to make a point?

[sirfstar]

Haven't seen any maps with any issues about asset spawns except only beirut so I actually dont know what you all are talking about yeah. So basically in the part I quoted he said that you dont rush because enemy is unprepared, though I shouldn't even care about that. No rushing 1st/2nd/etc flag rule works and it's enough, any further complaints it's your inability to fight because lack of skills/willing/whatever.

[Cavazos]

I think delaying assets just makes the game more focused on infantry combat.

I like the idea of lots of infantry combat, the battle space slowly forming, and THEN you get reinforced with assets to change the battle space more.

It has nothing to do with making the game more balanced or friendly. Just changing the gameplay to make infantry battles more common.

And no matter what faction you are, the majority of players get the most fun fighting infantry combat.

Cuz even if you have an armor squad making 5x more kills then everyone, it's only like 2-10% of the team's side seeing the most action. Leaving all the infantry without combat.

So basically you would move the action being taken away from armor and CAS to infantry which will be more fun for more people.

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[Rabbit]

Cavazos;2020311']I think delaying assets just makes the game more focused on infantry combat.

I like the idea of lots of infantry combat, the battle space slowly forming, and THEN you get reinforced with assets to change the battle space more.

I disagree, id say 50% of the time when an asset is lost people sit at main waiting for it, like pilots and stuff. This is just a player problem rather than a PR problem, if a trans heli goes down, hope in a logi and run supples or a supply truck and shuttle troops.

Not doing this causing infantry to take a truck, then drive to where they need to and ditch it.

[UTurista]

I disagree, id say 50% of the time when an asset is lost people sit at main waiting for it...

I might be wrong but I'm sure that's a 1.0v issue. In the old times with re-spawn times up to 20-30m the crew would usually goes as infantry.

[Rudd]

I might be wrong but I'm sure that's a 1.0v issue. In the old times with re-spawn times up to 20-30m the crew would usually goes as infantry.

you would be wrong, with longer spawn times just meant more smoke grenade raves at main.

Although some players (like meh) would run logistics or whatever until the asset spawns, however these players always did and still do this.

(Logistics is perfect for asset squads as you consistently return to main where you can get your old asset back)

[Beee8190]

Cavazos;2020311']I think delaying assets just makes the game more focused on infantry combat.

I like the idea of lots of infantry combat, the battle space slowly forming, and THEN you get reinforced with assets to change the battle space more.

It has nothing to do with making the game more balanced or friendly. Just changing the gameplay to make infantry battles more common.

And no matter what faction you are, the majority of players get the most fun fighting infantry combat.

Cuz even if you have an armor squad making 5x more kills then everyone, it's only like 2-10% of the team's side seeing the most action. Leaving all the infantry without combat.

So basically you would move the action being taken away from armor and CAS to infantry which will be more fun for more people.

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Precisely my point

Once again, ''rushing the flags'' is there and well alive because every APC and Tank squad simply knows there are no threats to them till they get within visual range of an objective in the middle of the map at which point a tank battle is always the same.

Nobody supports nobody - tanks are hunting tanks, inf fights inf, cas fights cas and APC's are fighting APC's ....can anyone else see the pattern?

Hasn't anyone noticed how nobody ever knows where the enemy Tanks or APCs are unless the commander marks them on the map?
Because INF doesn't think its their problem and that problem is for Tank / CAS squad to solve instead. I mean its not like the Tanks squad ever listens to INF calling for ARMOR support. ( ok it does happen sometimes but it rare )

I disagree, id say 50% of the time when an asset is lost people sit at main waiting for it, like pilots and stuff. This is just a player problem rather than a PR problem, if a trans heli goes down, hope in a logi and run supples or a supply truck and shuttle troops.

Not doing this causing infantry to take a truck, then drive to where they need to and ditch it.

Well and this is precisely why it is PR problem - People are not bothering with logistics because not only will they have their armor back up and running in the next 10 minutes but for the reason alone that FOBs take more effort when they can have all that fire power on wheels and mobile back again in no time

you would be wrong, with longer spawn times just meant more smoke grenade raves at main.

And this is indeed down to the players choice but considering how slow and clumsy logi trucks are they wouldn't even have enough time to get to bunkers if we were talking about maps like Kashan Desert, let alone set up a fob, meanwhile transport helicopters are either shot down or are on duty where it really matters

[sirfstar]

Hasn't anyone noticed how nobody ever knows where the enemy Tanks or APCs are unless the commander marks them on the map?
Because INF doesn't think its their problem and that problem is for Tank / CAS squad to solve instead. I mean its not like the Tanks squad ever listens to INF calling for ARMOR support. ( ok it does happen sometimes but it rare )

What game are you playing? Not PR definitely. Or maybe it's US servers?
I always mark shit as SL and most of the time I hear reports about everything over mumble or map markers, be it armor or cas. And usually if situation allows me to I do support for inf when they call, as well as I understand that it may be impossible or too dangerous for armor to help me but still I get support pretty often.

Once again, ''rushing the flags'' is there and well alive because every APC and Tank squad simply knows there are no threats to them till they get within visual range of an objective in the middle of the map at which point a tank battle is always the same.

What? Rushing flags MOST of the time done by ONLY inf sq with trans chopper just to hold the cap of first enemy flag. And they get instantly warned and forced to move back by admins. Last time for I don't even know how long I've seen APC gets warned and retrieving on PRTA maybe 2 weeks ago? If it's 2nd (usually capped) or even 3rd flag then its not rushing anymore.
You're really from some different universe, or haven't played for a long time, or playing on that russian ghetto server, whatever.

[Cavazos]

Flag rushing will always happen assets or not, delayed or immediate. That's another discussion.

I think what Rabbit says has a good chance of happening.

Can you give points to drivers every time someone hops in or if they drop a supply crate?

This will give some incentive to create a logistics squad more often and get rewarded for it.

It'll help establish a more permanent ground supply and transport role in the game instead of first squad to vehicle wins and ditches it at the front lines.

And this squad would obviously get dips on transport and logistics trucks. Forcing SLs to communicate with them to coordinate.

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[ComradeHX]

I say if assets are going to be delayed; we might as well delay spawning of everything(such as infantry).

On the typical attack/defense maps it allows defenders to set up defenses while allowing attackers to attempt to break through with a combined arms attack(I am under the impression that is what non-infantry-only maps in PR is about).

I miss old Muttrah when Dock rush was possible. It took skill for USMC side to land and it was a fun map even if it's more often for MEC to win since USMC gets all the bad pilots.

Cavazos;2020311']I think delaying assets just makes the game more focused on infantry combat.

I like the idea of lots of infantry combat, the battle space slowly forming, and THEN you get reinforced with assets to change the battle space more.

It has nothing to do with making the game more balanced or friendly. Just changing the gameplay to make infantry battles more common.

And no matter what faction you are, the majority of players get the most fun fighting infantry combat.

Cuz even if you have an armor squad making 5x more kills then everyone, it's only like 2-10% of the team's side seeing the most action. Leaving all the infantry without combat.

So basically you would move the action being taken away from armor and CAS to infantry which will be more fun for more people.

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If you wanted more infantry combat; you should play infantry layers.