Request for Revert to 1.2 Flight Mechanics (All Vehicles and Anti Air Weapons)

[ComradeHX]

Risk and reward interplay require a balance between risk and reward. Recent changes have tipped the scales in favor of risk by a pretty hefty margin. You can't trumpet a risk/reward relationship if the only risk is to the target.

If you're going to shout at me in all caps about what I don't realize, at least keep in mind what you're projecting. Reading your posts here is where I got the impression that you think all pilots are gibbering morons for whom "AA" means "Land Here", cackling about their immunity to all incoming fire in 1.2. (Anecdotes in particular)

It was a mistake to buff AA and nerf aviation in the same patch.

There is a balance between risk and reward.

The risk is that you could be shot down if you flew close to AA; the reward is that friendlies can deploy troops/supplies must faster and sometimes comparatively safer(because you can fly over obstacles instead of drive around) than if they were to drive trucks.

Shout? No, it's a highlight on what you don't realize. You go far on a little impression. If you think my posts paint every pilot as gibbering morons, then it's working as intended: those of lesser skill in working with other squads would think they were called morons.

AA needed a buff and aircraft needed a nerf; choppers now require teamwork between squads to stay safe/effective instead of only requiring pilot skill. At least AA damage wasn't buffed.

[mat552]

Aircraft did not need a nerf, AA needed a buff. Helicopters have always required far more teamwork than any of the SAM systems in game not the least of which because helicopters can't do anything alone. You can't shoot without a spotter and you have no reason to deliver supplies without troops.

You can still oneman SAM systems and MANPADS take less effort to get than a rifleman antitank.

Perhaps, in light of their new effectiveness, it's time to revisit those two design considerations.

[PatrickLA_CA]

I think that MANPADS should not be as successful as they are now. In my opinion AAVs should be the real threat to aircraft as they can represent a SAM site as IRL it takes more than just a guy with a rocket to bring down aircraft. For example the HIDAS system on british helicopters is very useful and it can block all 3 kinds of AA guided weapons.
Another reason is that the AAVs will be spotted by the other team too and the pilots will know to be careful, if they go there, there's a high chance that they will get shut down.
But on the other hand, anyone can grab a MANPAD and lonewolf through the entire map taking potshots at enemy aircraft which I think is unrealistic.

Perhaps make the manpads less useful but keep the AAVs as powerful as they are as well as bring back the faster helicopters.

[X-Alt]

I think that MANPADS should not be as successful as they are now. In my opinion AAVs should be the real threat to aircraft as they can represent a SAM site as IRL it takes more than just a guy with a rocket to bring down aircraft. For example the HIDAS system on british helicopters is very useful and it can block all 3 kinds of AA guided weapons.
Another reason is that the AAVs will be spotted by the other team too and the pilots will know to be careful, if they go there, there's a high chance that they will get shut down.
But on the other hand, anyone can grab a MANPAD and lonewolf through the entire map taking potshots at enemy aircraft which I think is unrealistic.

Perhaps make the manpads less useful but keep the AAVs as powerful as they are as well as bring back the faster helicopters.

Perhaps give the Avenger it's extra range while they're at it?

[PatrickLA_CA]

Well the thing about range is that AA can already see the lock squares beyond view distance so I think it's fine as it is.

[PricelineNegotiator]

Well the thing about range is that AA can already see the lock squares beyond view distance so I think it's fine as it is.

AA definitely does not need longer range.

The mere possibility of one shoulder fired SAM being present should not be enough to cripple an entire airborne company.

Quoted for truth.

Maybe I'm just insanely unlucky then. I've heard a few people say the same, but I've just been instakilled any time I hear the lock tone.

Same.

It was a mistake to buff AA and nerf aviation in the same patch.

Too many variables introduced at once really makes it hard to point your fingers to which is causing the largest part of the unbalance. Perhaps extend AA emplacement warm-up time to 30 seconds and make them "lock" in place like a tank turret until it is hot? Make handheld AA like HATs, where there is a significant delay to firing the rocket, like 3 seconds?

[X-Alt]

Well the thing about range is that AA can already see the lock squares beyond view distance so I think it's fine as it is.

The Avenger is odd, I wasn't getting locks beyond 800, likely to represent the Stinger missiles it fires.

[Hokunin]

Local cas fanatics are under a wrong impression that they must be invincible to AAs, and get surprised now "you can actually die from AA?!", -which is ridiculous, and proves that it is good changes. Cas hoes didn't care at all about AA they were flying right above our heads spamming their flares lining up for rocket and canon barrage, you needed a luck to shoot them down. The most enraging thing is when people had the stationary AA manned and even that didn't mean a thing to their insulting boldness(that happened a lot in muttrah, attack hues never cared about aa; Soldiers in stationary aa could only cry "wtf" while dying.)

And cas-pilot teammates couldn't ever reach them asking for assistance, cuz they were ignoring them flying their own business racking up frags.

Well, right now they will have to actually do TEAMWORK, listen to their team, ask their ground teammates to eliminate AA before going full operational in the designated region, be tactical.

It was stupid that a thing that is supposed to be afraid of AA is actually going there and killling AA. The system of rock and paper was broken. Cas whores got used to think that they are gods.

Be afraid of AA.

[PlaynCool]

Hokunin has spoken the awful truth here. Man up, stop whining as this is the most annoying thing ever - CAS pilots spamming all chat, complaining how they got killed when they were flying reckless, coordinate with armor to take out AA and then wreck havoc all you like. And yes, IRL transport helicopters will never drop off infantry if there is AA threat in the area. They will drop them miles behind...

[ComradeHX]

Aircraft did not need a nerf, AA needed a buff. Helicopters have always required far more teamwork than any of the SAM systems in game not the least of which because helicopters can't do anything alone. You can't shoot without a spotter and you have no reason to deliver supplies without troops.

You can still oneman SAM systems and MANPADS take less effort to get than a rifleman antitank.

Perhaps, in light of their new effectiveness, it's time to revisit those two design considerations.

You can easily shoot without a spotter, whether you can hit anything is a different story.

Handheld SAM typically need 2 shots to kill.

Stationary AA needs to be built by squad.

AA vehicle is vulnerable and easily spotted.

[uberlamer]

You can easily shoot without a spotter, whether you can hit anything is a different story.

Handheld SAM typically need 2 shots to kill.

Muttrah City yesterday.5 people MEC squad rushed north city and killed all the USMC transport...with Handheld AA(1 shot every huey) (perhaps playing the game first will give you the actual impression of how things work)

AA vehicle is vulnerable and easily spotted.

Good luck spotting AA vehicle on maps like Shijia Valley.

The person who made those AA changes doesn't realise that theres no way for helicopters to evade AA now.
Helis are TOO slow.You cant just give AA .973 properties and make all helis slow and expect people to not complain.Then you add the fact that you have the 1.3 flares that stay up for 3 seconds (prior to old flares =6,7 secs) and only 42 of them.

[PricelineNegotiator]

Users are giving precise feedback and are being met by trolls/idiots who are giving crass examples of how the game should play out, but never does. People will take advantage of current mechanics every chance they get.

[WeeD-KilleR]

Users are giving precise feedback and are being met by trolls/idiots who are giving crass examples of how the game should play out, but never does.

Users = People that agree with you.
Trolls/idiots = People that disagree with you.

Isnt it true? I think it's a low blow to label everybody that disagree with you as "troll" or an idiot.

People will take advantage of current mechanics every chance they get.

Such as the players who did CAS abused the fact that AA was absolute useless in 1.0-1.2? Such as how they abused the unrealistic flight mechanic of a straight down dive? Such as the speed that allowed pilots to flare late and still be far enough away from the flares that a rocket does no damage to the chopper?

Muttrah City yesterday.5 people MEC squad rushed north city and killed all the USMC Armor...with Handheld HAT(1 shot every APC) (perhaps playing the game first will give you the actual impression of how things work)

Look, the same 'argument' could be applied to any sort of rush. The issue here wasnt the AA but the fact that the opposite team used a lame tactic.

[Anderson29]

Look, the same 'argument' could be applied to any sort of rush. The issue here wasnt the AA but the fact that the opposite team used a lame tactic.

and/or that the blufor team was so unorganized at the start they couldnt get the inital wave of troops to keep a rush from happening.

lots of factors could play into that situation beside the "AA being OP and blah blah blah."

[DC_K]

Had some experience with the AA kit on Ramiel.. First impressions were made as soon as I shot down the Kiowa as it flew away from a dive. I began to lock him out barely in view distance, I believe he was also flaring his way out anyway (no other AA in the area but me), but I still managed to get him.. usually a shot like that wouldn't have happened in 1.2 unless it a hit flare and subsequently hit him, but I was a bit surprised that I got him.

I felt bad that the Kiowa got shot down, I didn't expect it to happen like that, especially when it was barely visible and flared as soon as the missile left the barrel.. however, this is coming from a CAS pilot, so maybe there's some bias involved, I'll let you decide. I'm definitely interested in playing some more with the AA on both sides, on foot and in the pilots seat, but so far I'm not liking it, not sure if its the buff of the AA or nerfing of the air vehicles/mechanics.

Skimming over some posts here, I've noticed several people stated that now it requires skill and coordination of pilots to complete their objective.. how does that work if 1 person (just like me, in the case of Ramiel INS..(was not intentional, running SPG techie)) can roam around the map as mobile AA units with literally no skill or coordination (apart from running from anything that sounds loud, like a stryker) and not expect to get shot down with the new and improved AA system? seems a bit unbalanced at a first glance.

[MADsqirrel]

...

Skimming over some posts here, I've noticed several people stated that now it requires skill and coordination of pilots to complete their objective.. how does that work if 1 person (just like me, in the case of Ramiel INS..(was not intentional, running SPG techie)) can roam around the map as mobile AA units with literally no skill or coordination (apart from running from anything that sounds loud, like a stryker) and not expect to get shot down with the new and improved AA system? seems a bit unbalanced at a first glance.

It is the same situation with the HAT for a very long time and I rarely hear anyone complain about that.

What I noticed so far after only 4 hours of playing is that Basecamping with the AA will be a even worse problem than before.
I can't count how many players I kicked for parking an AAV in range of the enemy Airstrip or waiting close to it with a handheld AA in version 1.2 and now it will be a lot easier to shoot them down.

Of course this is the duty of all admins to prevent that but they can't watch for this stuff all the time. I admit I have no idea how to prevent that expect for kicking those basecampers.

Apart of that I noticed CAS dying more quickly (Jets) but to me it seems more like the case of reckless flying and not communicating.

[Frontliner]

Users are giving precise feedback and are being met by trolls/idiots who are giving crass examples of how the game should play out, but never does. People will take advantage of current mechanics every chance they get.

Damnit gaiz, he really got us this time. We're all trolls and idiots! We should've known!



I've yet to see you make a statement as to why AAs should fail at the one thing they are designed to do each and every single time.

[Rabbit]

Hopefully the days of cas choppers going 100:1 is over for a few reasons, the damage they could do did not represent their ticket worth, and no one vehicle should be able to decide a win or loss buy more than 20 tickets (imo). Its current state in 1.3 from what I have seen so far is fine they shouldn't be hovering over a city like they were in 1.2, but coming in and hitting lazes from troops on the ground.

[Jafar Ironclad]

That, or remaining on station for a minute or so in a area the team has already certifiably cleared of anti-aircraft threats (save for MANPADS, which still require crates to request). This is actually feasible with a commander or well-positioned scout verifying enemy positions and a lack of anti-air threats. Infantry or armor that lack nearby FOB support still make wonderful targets for CAS; the onus is on teamwork to ensure that the team's front line doesn't outpace its air defense umbrella while air-to-surface attack is a threat.

We're keeping a close eye on this, but I would not expect drastic changes within the next few weeks. There's still a lot of data to collect, and playstyle adaptations by pilots may demonstrate that the balance is closer than it currently looks! In any case, a narrower field of "safe" terms of engagement for CAS (particularly helicopters) is something we feel is healthier for the game relative to past environments (and yes, I'm saying this as a notorious CAS enthusiast and fully accept my blasphemous counsel).

[Navo]

Good luck spotting AA vehicle on maps like Shijia Valley.

So you actually need people on the ground now communicating with you?