Thesis

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bpwelch
Posts: 22
Joined: 2005-09-08 19:26

Thesis

Post by bpwelch »

Please bear with me through this long thesis..

1. Sabot Rounds: I haven't been able to test out how effective the current sabots are in .1 because it crash on single player and I haven't found an online server yet; but it seems to me one well placed sabot round should take out a tank, just something to think on since I believe that would add a lot to the tank combat and tactics in the game.

2. Arty fire modes: ie, consentrated fire, fire for effect, spread fire, etc.
Pretty much means you have some say as to the grouping of your shots.

3. Spawn points/respawn amount/forward deployment zones: I think it would enhance the realism if there was only one place you could respawn on the map, DoD made it work and I think it would work well in this mod. Also if there was only "one" spawn you could have multiple close together so one arty strike wouldn't nail everyone; along those same lines if there was a forward deployment area once you captured and controlled an area I think that would help as long as it wasn't on that site; I've grown tired of the unrealistic spawns, especaily during a flag cap.

4. Service specific gear and vehicles: as far as I can see the marines are the main US force in the game, what I would like to see is on one map have the marines and another have the army. Examples: ch-53s are used in the marines, as far as I know last time I looked on the marine core site they didn't even employ blackhawks. Along those lines the MEU(soc) units use custom 1911 .45cal sidearms and supressed mp-5ns; I would like to see maybe an unlock for kits that was also service specific.

5. No Rader: simple as it sounds, I hate the POS rader that has to basis in realism on ANY level. If the map that showed up when you hit 'M' was a paper map with creases in it and everything should be the only thing you get. To further that maybe only squad leaders get compass or gps units. Another thing is to give squad waypoints you actually have to THROW the colored smoke 'nade to mark a position then it would show up on the map for everyone on your team or just the ones in your squad. Along this same line would to recieve intel you would look on your paper map and see the grid coords for the enemy units spotted by team mates or commander.

6. Weaker c4/shaped charges/IEDs: I think the c4 should be weaker and not effective against tanks. I think maybe the specfors or engi's should get a shaped charge that they could take a tank out with. Also IEDs should be put into the game, maybe looking like an odd looking bush that you might or might not recognize when drivering by, simply place it like a mine or c4 for remote det.

7. Slower foot speed/less dash/practicly no jump: pretty self explanatory for the first two, on the third point of jumping make it like one jump per every 15/30 seconds and when you jump it just reduces all your dash speed.

8. C-130s/C-17s: it might be nice some time down the road to add planes for airborne units and also vehicle deployments behind enemy lines.

9. No tab indications on enemies status: simple, you shouldn't gain intel on the enemy via in-game scoreboard.

10. Co-pilot & crew chief for helo: Maybe have a copilot for the helo. Since fast ropes for helos would be nice(and doable with the SpecFor Expansion) it would be nice to have a crew chief, maybe even have him double as a gunner.

11. No respawn/limited respawn game variants: simple, work hard to use teamwork and stay alive, maybe have timers or something.

12. Vehicle spawn at base only: simple again, if you can't spawn at a base then big pieces of combat equipment shouldn't either.

13. No kit drops: simple again, not often do you pick up and use the enemies weapons; in some cases it has happend, but it is not the norm.

14. Rearm + Heal from specific vehicles only: no more silly hmmwv made into medvacs 'cause of one medic in it; have a medvac bradly, blackhawk and hmmwv. Maybe on the same for rearm, but the rearm should come in the form of a transport since in reality one preson can't reload form a little pouch a squad of anti-armor troops.

15. Bradly IFVs m2/m3: Easy-peasy one again, have more troop transports in the game since troops normally do not going charging into battle on foot; also increase the hmmwv spawns.

16. Web-based guide on squad tactics, moving properly with your squad to maximize your unit survivibilty: just some basic princples for unit cohesion, also maybe some convoy guidelines and tank formations.

17. Query about use of Special Forces expansion from EA: Will you be incorperating any of it into the mode? I think you could at least rip-off the repelling for use as zip-lines on helos.

18. Revamp scoreboard based off teamwork: also rework some of the basics to include tanks crews and points for various additions to the mod.

19. Night missions+flashlights+NVGs+Flashbangs: any or all might be nice to have at some point.

20. Commander from stations only: Not some mythical magic view screen the commander sees when hidding under a bridge. Have a command vehicle the would require a driver and the commander; examples: m2/m3 bradly, blackhawk, something that the enemy can remove and then cause us to at least wait for the vehicle to respawn giving them the momentary advantage.

21. Weapon idea: take the grip from the g36c, add it to the m4, make the stats on the m4 equal to the g36c, and viola! you have a current in service marine corp rifle! and it would be a lot closer I think to what an m4 would perform like in real life.

22. Stronger anti-tank rockets if possible: only if serviced by current units, have a better anti-tank alternative.

23. Better Squad Automatic Weapon: more damage, more supported, maybe takes longer to set up or whatever; at the current time it is worse then useless when in reality it is a cornerstone of almost any squad.

24. I-Beam Caltrops: something that might be able to stop tanks and blowable with c4. you could just make it like arty models and default is destroyed and an engi can come up and "repair" it and set it up.

25. Mounted 40mm turrets+no unlimited ammo counters: face it, nobady has magic guns.


Thanks for reading all this if you did, and if ya didnt....well ya...

Please respond, I love the feedback since it refines or just corrects some of the mistakes I might have made! And if we get lucky it might even help the dev-team. :D

-bp
toffa_h
Posts: 33
Joined: 2005-08-13 13:47

Post by toffa_h »

Long list you've got there. I too want repelling from choppers, damnit! As for spawn points, the maps are too huge in BF to have only one spawn point.
Psycho_Sam
Posts: 255
Joined: 2005-06-15 00:03

Post by Psycho_Sam »

Too much of that has been discussed countless times I feel. Im pretty sure that the Devs know now what they are going to do for the final release. Its just the wait as they implement it all :(
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Wolfmaster
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 4927
Joined: 2004-09-05 16:00

Post by Wolfmaster »

the artillery fire modes was a new idea to me.. sounds good, but i dont know how well it'll fit with the new way of artillery firing the devs are working on.
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Eddie Baker
Posts: 6945
Joined: 2004-07-26 12:00

Post by Eddie Baker »

I'll try to give a point-by-point answer to all your questions/ideas eventually, but these are the ones that stand out at the moment. :)
bpwelch wrote:2. Arty fire modes: ie, consentrated fire, fire for effect, spread fire, etc.
Pretty much means you have some say as to the grouping of your shots.
One of our advisors, Hickman, is a British Army forward observer. He has advised us on different patterns of artillery fire and we will definitely try to implement those in some way. BTW, I believe "fire-for-effect" is a command to start a barrage instead of calling for a spotting round. The actual patterns of artillery have different names, such as "default sheaf."
bpwelch wrote:4. Service specific gear and vehicles: as far as I can see the marines are the main US force in the game, what I would like to see is on one map have the marines and another have the army. Examples: ch-53s are used in the marines, as far as I know last time I looked on the marine core site they didn't even employ blackhawks. Along those lines the MEU(soc) units use custom 1911 .45cal sidearms and supressed mp-5ns; I would like to see maybe an unlock for kits that was also service specific.
That is one of the main things we are trying for. Just FYI, not all elements of a MEU(SOC) use .45 sidearms, usually just the attached Force Recon platoon that forms part of the direct action element of the Maritime Special Purpose Force. MP-5N has fallen out of favor for the M4.
bpwelch wrote:8. C-130s/C-17s: it might be nice some time down the road to add planes for airborne units and also vehicle deployments behind enemy lines.
The C-17, and sadly even the C-130, are a bit too large for the map sizes in Battlefield 2. We do plan to include some medium and heavy lift helicopters, though.
bpwelch wrote:10. Co-pilot & crew chief for helo: Maybe have a copilot for the helo. Since fast ropes for helos would be nice(and doable with the SpecFor Expansion) it would be nice to have a crew chief, maybe even have him double as a gunner.
Fast-ropes or helicopter rappelling we're not sure of the feasibility of yet. In real-life, a transport helicopter crew chief or flight engineer does man one of the guns, so you could say his position is already accounted for. As for co-pilots, we're trying to find out just how many positions we can fit into different vehicles. If we can fit additional slots, we will most likely be using them for passengers so that the helicopter can carry more men to the fight. In-game, the role of the co-pilot is harder to make useful, unless he controls a weapon or avionics system.
bpwelch wrote:15. Bradly IFVs m2/m3: Easy-peasy one again, have more troop transports in the game since troops normally do not going charging into battle on foot; also increase the hmmwv spawns.
Yes, there will be more infantry transports.
bpwelch wrote:24. I-Beam Caltrops: something that might be able to stop tanks and blowable with c4. you could just make it like arty models and default is destroyed and an engi can come up and "repair" it and set it up.
Something like that was suggested by one of the devs and I thought it was a good idea, then, too. "I-beam caltrops" is a good description. I believe obstacles of that type (other variations include pyramid shaped concrete and steel blocks) are referred to as "dragon's teeth."
bpwelch wrote:25. Mounted 40mm turrets+no unlimited ammo counters: face it, nobady has magic guns.
I assume you mean 40mm automatic grenade launcher, and not 40mm anti-aircraft? Mk-19 and other types of AGL will likely make an appearance on different platforms. We will be eliminating the unlimited ammunition from the stationary weapons, in fact I believe it is posted in the changelist for MM .2.
bpwelch
Posts: 22
Joined: 2005-09-08 19:26

Post by bpwelch »

Thanks for the answers Eddie, I'm glad those things are going to be done. :D

As for the 40mmm mounted, yes I did mean Mk-19.

It is also very cool that you have good ex- or current army(from different countries to!) advisors to help you with the game, makes me feel like this mod is in excellent hands.

-bp
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worst 3
Posts: 253
Joined: 2005-08-13 07:19

Post by worst 3 »

#13 kit pick up

i think that you should be able to only be able to pick up some parts of a kit. ammo should be quick to pick up if it is a similar cal. i some times run out of amo and would like to take some from some one. also the gun posible but it will take a few seconds 3 or 4. the quick change needs to be changed tho.
Artnez
Posts: 634
Joined: 2005-08-15 01:44

Post by Artnez »

I wholeheartedly agree with no kit pickup.

Although it may seem slightly unrealistic, I think it would promote more teamwork. If you're out of ammo, you better take cover and wait for ammo or go find a resupply :)

This would offset the fact that people respawn (making ammo lay all over the place).

It would also teach people that they shouldn't spray at random areas unless they have the resources to do so.

Another thing I wonder... if it's possible to give "supply" advantages on certain maps. IE: a paratrooper unit is surrounded and is low on ammo -- yet they have great defensive positions.
"Having the piss taken out of you is a small price to pay when others do your research. Thank you gentlemen." - Azametric(IRL)
worst 3
Posts: 253
Joined: 2005-08-13 07:19

Post by worst 3 »

yea but reality is that in war some times you need amo and you get it where you can get it. in war people would get the amo when theres was runing low. waht if you sqad dose not have a suport class to resuply you to, and i think it is dumb having a soldier have unlimited amo to give out. you should not force team work on people the mod being more realistic should make it harder if you dont, dont punish people becuse they dont play the way you want them to. a real sniper is not going to be in a sqad or not a big one he needs to be able to pick up the amo he needs, he usualy gets another gun to but not in the mod for to be fair. i dont know how may clips a soldire caries but i think it is more then waht some guns have. forgot the amount clips for asult to. i think spec ops should have more clips then some other solders so they can go behind the enemy lines.

it should be realistic with means you can take a soldires amo but not quick like it is now a 2 clips a second. the gun maby not shure soldires could use a gun effectivaly so maby not but take a few extra seconds too nades and such i have no opinion.
Artnez
Posts: 634
Joined: 2005-08-15 01:44

Post by Artnez »

worst 3 wrote:yea but reality is that in war some times you need amo and you get it where you can get it. in war people would get the amo when theres was runing low. waht if you sqad dose not have a suport class to resuply you to, and i think it is dumb having a soldier have unlimited amo to give out. you should not force team work on people the mod being more realistic should make it harder if you dont, dont punish people becuse they dont play the way you want them to. a real sniper is not going to be in a sqad or not a big one he needs to be able to pick up the amo he needs, he usualy gets another gun to but not in the mod for to be fair. i dont know how may clips a soldire caries but i think it is more then waht some guns have. forgot the amount clips for asult to. i think spec ops should have more clips then some other solders so they can go behind the enemy lines.

it should be realistic with means you can take a soldires amo but not quick like it is now a 2 clips a second. the gun maby not shure soldires could use a gun effectivaly so maby not but take a few extra seconds too nades and such i have no opinion.
You make a good point.

I still disagree, though.

What they should do is not allow kit pickups and have resupply stations at the edges of maps for both forces.

I personally disagree with the commanders resupply thing altogether. It takes time for the plane to load up, take off, fly over, drop supplies, etc. It doesnt take 15 seconds, that's for sure.

If anything, they should atleast make it so that you only get whatever was left in the clip. Otherwise, you would have to sit their pick at his pockets to get the clips.. and that takes time.
"Having the piss taken out of you is a small price to pay when others do your research. Thank you gentlemen." - Azametric(IRL)
Evil Koala
Posts: 50
Joined: 2005-08-27 05:59

Post by Evil Koala »

You have a lot of great suggestions. A few I've been pushing for myself. One of which is respawns for players and vehicles being only at your main base. The maps are too big for one respawn point? I disagree. It would only add importance to teamwork in organizing transport. Making the blackhawks vital in fast deployments, and also adding to the players fear of death. The fear of death comes from the knowledge that if they die, they're out of the fight (oh noes! Consiquence to death?!?). No respawning at the flag thats under heavy attack.. Magically appearing behind that tank, that just mowed down you and your entire squad, with SRAW in hand. With only one rear spawn point, you'll have to wait, regroup, and organize a counter attack.
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bpwelch
Posts: 22
Joined: 2005-09-08 19:26

Post by bpwelch »

A big HELL FUCKING YES to what Evil Koala just said: FEAR of DEATH WITHOUT an EASY RESPAWN! :D

I think that it would be the single most realistic thing added to the game, one that would be noticably lacking from this already awesome mod.

They did it with Day of Defeat and everyone loved it!

And to answer the nay sayers: yes, it IS a big map, but that just serves to make everyone THAT MUCH MORE CAREFUL!

Plus I hope the run speed is reduced, jumping almost taken out entirely, and less dash.

-bp
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{GD}Snake13
Posts: 142
Joined: 2005-09-09 13:52

Post by {GD}Snake13 »

I think not allowing kit pickups is unrealistic, IRL do you think a soldier would sit cowering with a knife when there is an ak101 sitting right next to him? Do you think that if the Automatic rifleman got hit that the squad leader wouldn't have someone else pickup his duty on the SAW? Or a squad that is getting pinned down by a tank would sit there staring at a SRAW on the ground while their mates get mowed down?

No, they'd pick up the weapon in question and use it, remeber no kit pickup means no picking up your own teamates kits either, its just not restrictive
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Hickman
Posts: 160
Joined: 2005-01-06 13:00

Post by Hickman »

I believe "fire-for-effect" is a command to start a barrage instead of calling for a spotting round
Correct!

[General Interest]

All artillery engagements go through a phase of adjustment. This includes Tgts included in a Fire Plan. A fire plan is a selection of tgts which are pre recorded...ie adjusted and Firing data is saved and given a Tgt number. The Fire Plan is then distributed to FDCs(Fire direction centers) and CPs.(Command Posts).
The Fire Plan schedual is determind by "H Hour" and runs automatically once initiated.
eg....

"H -30, UT2000 3rds FFE."
"H-10, UT2001 3rds FFE."
"H-5, UT2002 2rds smoke FFE."

(H=HHour)(-30=minus 30 mins)(UT2000=Prerecorded Tgt number)(3 rounds Fire for effect)

This is a very basic example of a Fire Plan. Fire plans can last for a number of hours depending on Commanders plans and objectives. They run without the influence of the forward observers.
The Ops who a attached to the forward attacking elements will monitor the Fire Plan and can change it on the fly!
Military Advisor,Royal Artillery.
bpwelch
Posts: 22
Joined: 2005-09-08 19:26

Post by bpwelch »

Yes, I guess I can see your point {GD}Snake13, but I still woulnd't mind it being more specific, like say the guns are seperate from the kit, and so are the nades, maybe have the kit stay there for the entire duration of the round; I just don't want to see magic all in one kit bags laying around I guess...

Thanks Hickman for the information on the arty, it was very interesting. :D

-bp
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goodidea
Posts: 2
Joined: 2005-09-28 02:04

Post by goodidea »

im not so sure one jump every 30 seconds and it reducing all the stamina would be too realistic eh? BUT I like the idea about the repel speed line down from the blackhawk. It would put to use the hover abilities most of us have gotten so good at. Also im not sure how easy it would be to do so but if choppers could have more actual damage (nothing too big) but if I was shot in the tail I would expect to lose a little rotation control
Artnez
Posts: 634
Joined: 2005-08-15 01:44

Post by Artnez »

goodidea wrote:im not so sure one jump every 30 seconds and it reducing all the stamina would be too realistic eh?
Stand in your room and try to bunny hop (seriously, do it). Note how high you jump. Note how tired you get and how fast.

Now imagine having gear.

Now take into account the fact that BF2 doesn't support the "climb over" action. You can't, say, come up to a 4 foot wall and "climb" over it. You have to jump over it. With gear, you would never be able to hop over that 4 foot wall and land perfectly (atleast most people wouldn't).

So, the amount of times you jump need to be a minimal amount, but you can jump over obstacles.
"Having the piss taken out of you is a small price to pay when others do your research. Thank you gentlemen." - Azametric(IRL)
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