Running and Gunning

n|ghtshader · Post by **n|ghtshader** » 2007-05-07 17:55

Or maybe there is a way? Possibly by introducing few 'tutorials' or movie clips full of tactical aspects of the game. We need to teach teamwork, so RnG'ers will learn that their behavior is ruining whole concept of Reality Mod.

It's certainly true that to play tactically players need to be coached, unfortunately I don't think it's sufficient. As it stands playing tactically is a sure fire way to lose the game: you just won't capture as many flags as the RnGers and the fact that you'll die much less is pretty unimportant, death is cheap.

I think teaching people to play tactically would be a hard enough even if it was the winning strategy, if it's a losing strategy ...

wpchen · Post by **wpchen** » 2007-05-07 17:59

5 minute spawn times remind me of America's Army or something like that. I think it would detract from gameplay a lot, since no one wants to wait 5 minutes to play again. Sure, you say it will make people value their lives more, but it will also discourage newbies from playing.

Example: When I first started PR, it was a while ago. I played a couple rounds, sucked really bad, went back to vBF2. Nowadays, I'm playing PR again, and I still suck really bad, but I don't run and gun. I play Anti-Personnel a lot, and use the binoculars more than the rifle. Do I still suck? Yes. Is my KDR 1:10? Yes. If the spawn time were 5 minutes long, would my KDR still be 1:10? Probably. Would I have as much fun? Probably not, since I have to wait 5 minutes between spawns and since I suck. Having 5 minute spawn times would probably make all the run and gunners go away, since, at least from my experiences doing it earlier on, it does tend to result in lots of deaths, but it would also discourage new players who want to play tactically but aren't up to par yet.

I like the "squad wave" reinforcement idea, but find that that might not work too well. I think the squadleader spawn was designed to simulate this but accelerate the pace, so we don't have games 2 hours long.

Cascyth · Post by **Cascyth** » 2007-05-07 18:01

What about minimum number of players required to capture the flag?
Scaled to map size:
16 - 4 players required to cap a flag
32 - 6
64 - 8
(or even more)

That'd make RnG'ers somehow useless.

{WaRrioR} · Post by **{WaRrioR}** » 2007-05-07 18:03

Hey i have a good idea! Maybe we could introduce some kind of training like in Americas army before people can play online??? just a suggestion.

Cascyth · Post by **Cascyth** » 2007-05-07 18:11

Nah, training in AA didn't make people play in it in tactical way. Even training in ArmA doesn't deploy your willingness and skills in teamwork play.

But tactical manuals like this one: http://dslyecxi.com/armattp.html do.

Post by **Outlawz7** » 2007-05-07 18:11

Think about suggestions, before you post. 95% is hardcoded

I think, we should wait and see, how will the new 17 km maps affect this.
If I'll took a look at the map and see 31 headless chickens on a 10x10 km area, then this is an issue.

Cheesygoodness · Post by **Cheesygoodness** » 2007-05-07 18:40

Now for run in gun I feel I've done it from time to time.

Moving up with a squad and the like. A guy is pinned in the building up ahead by my 4 other squadmates so I pop a clip in my M16 stand up and start running toward the building with my other squadmate throwing a grenade inside while I pop off single shots toward the opening to keep him down. After the grenade goes off he moves in with me behind me either me reloading or carrying a pistol.

Now that might be considered run and gun in a way because it could have went worse. He could have got out long enough to put AK fire into me or my friend. He could have had more people in the building. But its a risk you have to take sometimes to advance.

Is that run and gun?

Fat Zombie · Post by **Fat Zombie** » 2007-05-07 20:03

Well, the reason that people don't run and gun in real life (although they sometimes do anyway), is because they fear for their life. The inverse of that is why we play these games; we can play army without the fear that this headshot means actual, eternal, death.
With that fear removed, people will want to play like nutters (which I also do; in fact, one of my favourite games is sticking loads of C4 onto a fast-moving vehicle, ramming a piece of heavy armour, jumping out and detonating it for fun and profit. You would never see me do this in real life, EVER).

However, removing the run'n'gun aspect of the games by reintroducing some sort of permadeath (as in sit out the rest of the round) wouldn't remove it. For my reasoning, please look at something like Counterstrike (fun game); you die, you sit out the round; but people still act like fools.

To me, it seems the only way of removing run'n'gun is to remove all the players who practice it, by making it impossible for them to enjoy it. This would kill off most if not all of the large fanbase, but i'm sure that the dedicated core of tactical players would remain.

(I'm not one of these, unfortunately; I try to play tactically but I find that bomb-jeeps are entertaining, as is running into someone's face with a live grenade or firing RPGs at lone soldiers because that damn pistol is so lame I might as well... etc, etc.)

VipersGhost · Post by **VipersGhost** » 2007-05-07 20:10

This is a clear and simple issue...RnG is what it is because its DAMN effective in game. If you are not RnG in basrah or other city areas...then you are at a disadvantage. I will eventually fly around a corner full auto, sidesteping like Joh Travolta in Saturday Night fever at 30Mph and waste you in your excellent defensive position. Even if I dont kill you, you'll have a tough time killing me as I fly by guns blazing. Now my KDR is about 2-1...3-1 on a good map..less on a bad one. I've played a lot with a 50-80 ping and know the game. Things that make RnG work.

1-Getting hit doesn't effect you, can still run sideways and blast away with same accuracy/vision.

2-Ironsites lift instantly after sprinting/proning

3-You can run sideways very quickly whilst blazing away on full-auto with little reduction in accuracy.

4-Sprinting with 40 pounds of clanky gear and boots still renders you silent, perfectly accurate, its like "PR-Ninja Gaiden". Go play some paint ball and then tell me you dont hear anyone sprinting 4 feet from you with ONLY jeans on...I'm not talking about "OHH what about when a tank is near you"...no in PR there are plenty of silent moments.

5-The guy moving with a RIFLE is way more lethal in close quarters than the guy sitting in a defensive position. This is utter ****, this does NOT function like it does IRL...as it is now, the stationary guy is by FAR at a disadvantage in a street battle.

IRL the guy flying around would be dead because he sounds like a cow (in general), is running thus has SHIIITEY accuracy and can't handle fullauto worth a dam, and would fall on his *** running sideways for half a mile shooting full-auto with AK (exaggeration for a point). Right now I run like a silent ninja and jump 3-4 guys wasting them easily while high steping right through all of them like TO on a touchdown dance with a full auto-AK....ULTIMATE Gheyness. You can do it anywhere there is structure...if you aren't, then you are waiting to get shot by someone who is.

If you play CQB JUST like you do in HALO or whatever...then you will improve your KDR because there is NO penalty for doing it...even if someone sees you, then you dart out of the way. With all of the new "Metaphors" for realism, it REALLY bothers me that no dev's even comment on this...maybe the sound guy but none of them that are doing anything gameplay wise. Bring up a map issue and 5 dev's jump you...bring up the #1 issue...and silence. I know I'm being a jerk, and I love PR to death...just feeling a little jaded...like no one wants to talk about the stuff that really matters.

I know "hardcoded"....thats nonsense...come up with a metaphor dangit...then gameplay will change...get rid of the straffing speed...no one runs sideways IRL for more than 5 ft, take the lesser of two evils and fix the garbage. Increase the bullet spread on full-auto hip shooting...find a flippin animator for the guns please so we can rid the PR world of Proners, theres a big world out there. I dont care about everything else...its all trivial compared to the gameplay. Gameplay >content. Saying "hardcoded" is a joke...we are now using "metaphors" amist other things to adjust the gameplay into a more realistic expereince, so lets find some creative out of the box solutions.

Yes some of these will come with some sacrifices in one area to more greatly benifit the game as a whole, but thats fine. I know this is a rant, and so be it...I enjoy the game alot, I support the devs and completely appreciate the work they do for free...one complaint isn't so bad

here's to 0.6!

SiN|ScarFace · Post by **SiN|ScarFace** » 2007-05-07 20:48

Yes, troops in PR need to make more noise, you can't hear anyone until they are literally 5 feet from you.

A big reason RnG is also effective esp against a target which is defensive (stationary) is that your aim is perfect as soon as you take your finger off the movement key. The whole stop on a dime deal is what makes BF2 everything but realistic and all the mods have the same issue. Strafing wouldn't be a problem if you had some kind of inertia with movement (which im sure is Hardcoded like everything else). When so many REALISM killing issues are hardcoded it's futile IMO to encourage people to play the game a certain way when the only thing stopping them from not playing it your way is their will.

VipersGhost · Post by **VipersGhost** » 2007-05-07 20:50

SiN|ScarFace wrote:Yes, troops in PR need to make more noise, you can't hear anyone until they are literally 5 feet from you.

A big reason RnG is also effective esp against a target which is defensive (stationary) is that your aim is perfect as soon as you take your finger off the movement key. The whole stop on a dime deal is what makes BF2 everything but realistic and all the mods have the same issue. Strafing wouldn't be a problem if you had some kind of inertia with movement (which im sure is Hardcoded like everything else). When so many REALISM killing issues are hardcoded it's futile IMO to encourage people to play the game a certain way when the only thing stopping them from not playing it your way is their will.

Strafing speed is not hardcoded...niether is the recoil. Yeah you can run sideways...but it just doesn't happen like that IRL consistently. I'm sure the normal, slow steping strafing is present 90% of the time IRL, where as the running sideways, straffing and shooting is present 10% IRL...so why do we model the latter and completely neglect the former?? I dont want to have to have my sites up to move methodically in CQB like IRL...no I want to slowly step to the side and have a real CQB battle. Yes the sideways running is a crappy fix for not being able to look left and right when you are moving, but who cares...that is far less important. I would GLADLY sacrifice that for a more realistic play. So you say, well how can you see whos around a corner...well IRL even if you look it doesn't mean your gun is pointed to it...so even if you see someone there then you will still be dead the same, cause he is in a nice defensive spot and grantedly should have the advantage. So that is just one minor fix to a few other pressing issues and I think it would easily warrent some thinking at least.

danthemanbuddy · Post by **danthemanbuddy** » 2007-05-07 22:01

I agree with everything viper said.

Whats the point of Black Sand Studios? I mean yes it is a great thing, but why don't we borrow an animator. There has to be a couple of those in BSS. Just to do a ironsights slowdown and sidestepping.

Yes I also wish Devs would reply to us, rather than just on maps. Core gameplay is the center of this mod, not Maps. Honestly I would play Gulf of Oman with v.5 's system as long as the gameplay was good.