About tank driving...

General discussion of the Project Reality: BF2 modification.
Farks
Posts: 2069
Joined: 2007-01-20 00:08

About tank driving...

Post by Farks »

Armour is really awesome in PR, espescially now with the increased view distance.

But there's one problem - and it's the players. The tank drivers to be more specific. On maps like Kashan Desert, people tend to drive the tanks on top of the mountains to get a "good view" of the battlefield. Sure, you can overwatch a big area and spot enemys fast - But! The enemy can see you just as good as you can see them, and you might soon find yourself fired upon by alot of enemys, and you can't engage them all at the same time. In real life, one basic rule for tank drivers is to stay low and drive below hills and other heights. This means you will be harder to spot for enemy ground forces, and you will also have the ability to "pop out" and surprise the enemy.

This is what Dslyexcis TTP says about tank driving:
The tank driver...

* Moves in a tactical fashion from cover to cover or concealment.
* Locates and positions the tank in hull-down positions when possible.
* Scans the front for mines, satchels, IEDs, and other threats.
* Listens to the commander or gunner for movement orders.
* Stays alert of friendly infantry positions and attempts to avoid them. The driver should also attempt to communication his intent to reverse when in tight terrain with infantry nearby (ie MOUT).
And this is what his OFP- guide says:
"Hull down" is the term used to describe when a vehicle (typically a tank) uses the terrain in such a way that only the gun/turret is visible to enemy forces. This provides the enemy with a smaller target, protects the more vulnerable parts of the vehicle from enemy fire, and allows the vehicle to fire more or less unhindered. The illustration below shows an M1A2 tank in a hull-down position behind a small rise. From this location, the tank had perfect visibility of a major enemy avenue of approach and had a clear line of fire down that approach without having to expose anything more than the turret to enemy return fire.

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[BIGGER VERSION OF THIS PICTURE]

Hull down positions can be used by any vehicles that have weapon systems atop them - even a HMMWV with a TOW can benefit from a hull-down position, though not nearly so much as a tank might.

In the best-case scenario, a tank can utilize a hull-down position when firing, and then retreat back below the cover (i.e. down the slope that provides the 'hull-down' possibility in the first place) to total protection during the reload before popping back into a hull-down position for the next shot.

Remember that a hull-down position is relative to the location and distance from the enemy. The greater the distance of the engagement, the more likely you can get into a hull down position even in a small elevation decrease.
OiSkout
Posts: 1294
Joined: 2006-05-14 02:39

Post by OiSkout »

You also have to remember these tank drivers are also gunners at the same time.

Me and my friend have been doin some tank whoring recently, and we pretty much dominated. Usually he goes about 20/1(he's the gunner) a round, and we usually end up in the top 3 scoring. It's all about movement and communication. If I see something, I usually call out the target and maybe stop. He calls out firing, and then I move the tank immediately again. It's all about communication.

Now if only I could get one more friend who can man the MG on top ... who can also get out and repair and remove mines ...
VipersGhost
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Joined: 2007-03-27 18:34

Post by VipersGhost »

Its WAY to easy for people to single-player tank. I really wish you could not instantly switch to a driver and back up. That is the one saving grace all tankers have...if they get shot, switch and driveback\smoke instantly to retreat and repair. If there was a significant delay before you could move the tank then it would more greatly benifit 2-player tankers. I also think the delay when moving to the gunner should be longer. I'm sure in a tank it takes long than that to move, situate, and get setup to actually fire a round accurately. Now it only takes like 3 seconds.

Oh yeah and I definitely don't like all the careless tankers out there either....they just die die die so easily, like a soldier running into sniper fire every time...dumbasses.
Farks
Posts: 2069
Joined: 2007-01-20 00:08

Post by Farks »

VipersGhost wrote:Its WAY to easy for people to single-player tank. I really wish you could not instantly switch to a driver and back up. That is the one saving grace all tankers have...if they get shot, switch and driveback\smoke instantly to retreat and repair. If there was a significant delay before you could move the tank then it would more greatly benifit 2-player tankers. I also think the delay when moving to the gunner should be longer. I'm sure in a tank it takes long than that to move, situate, and get setup to actually fire a round accurately. Now it only takes like 3 seconds.

Oh yeah and I definitely don't like all the careless tankers out there either....they just die die die so easily, like a soldier running into sniper fire every time...dumbasses.
In Point of Existance for Battlefield Vietnam, moving between seats was disabled. I don't know if this is possible to do with the BF2- engine, but it sure would be useful.
Rhino
Retired PR Developer
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Post by Rhino »

Farks wrote:In Point of Existance for Battlefield Vietnam, moving between seats was disabled. I don't know if this is possible to do with the BF2- engine, but it sure would be useful.
not possible :(
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Farks
Posts: 2069
Joined: 2007-01-20 00:08

Post by Farks »

'[R-DEV wrote:Rhino']not possible :(
:(

What about giving the the tanks a "start up" time, so you can't start driving right away?
El_Vikingo
Posts: 4877
Joined: 2006-11-27 01:50

Post by El_Vikingo »

Then, engine start time! 5 seconds!

EDIT; Beat me to it!
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If you are reading this dont stop, cause if you do, I'll kick you in the balls.
dbzao
Retired PR Developer
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Post by dbzao »

We tried but we were having some trouble... may take a look again in the future.
El_Vikingo
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Post by El_Vikingo »

I thought it would be as simple as doing what you did for the choppers and planes. Does this tells us how "fart sound" the BF2 Engine is?
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DarkTalon
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Joined: 2007-03-22 00:17

Post by DarkTalon »

the turret should move with the arrow keys like in RO, after all the turret can only go about 7.5 rpm
Guerra norte
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Joined: 2006-07-19 17:37

Post by Guerra norte »

DarkTalon wrote:the turret should move with the arrow keys like in RO, after all the turret can only go about 7.5 rpm
That wouldn't give you the sensitivity variation a mouse simulates like on a real gunnery control, arrow keys would be more fitting for manual traverse.
Crusader09
Posts: 179
Joined: 2007-06-26 16:51

Post by Crusader09 »

I'll only accept arrow key control for turrets after stabilization is fixed up and polished. And I'm tired of pointing out the fact that the M1 tank does not have a warm-up time for its turbine engine in real life. The problem is the acceleration, not the warm-up time. It takes about seven (7) seconds for an M1 to reach 20mph.

As for the one-man tankers, it's only easier for them on the larger maps such as Kashan Desert. If they're in Urban maps such as Sunset city, they're cold meat.
=ICC=
In game name: ELITE_TANKER

"Discipline is the soul of an army. It makes small numbers formidable; procures success to the weak, and esteem to all."
-George Washington
daranz
Posts: 1622
Joined: 2007-04-16 10:53

Post by daranz »

It might not have warm up time, but it does not have a teleportation device that instantly transports you to the driver seat, with your hands on the controls. A warm-up time when getting into the vehicle would be a good way to simulate getting in the tank.

Also, keyboard keys are not really a good way to simulate the kind of turret controls that tanks have in real life. On-off keys do not allow you for variable traversal speed. I'm pretty sure most modern tanks have joystick-type controls for their turrets, allowing for analog control of traversal speed.

Also, the thing about acceleration is that in real life, Abrams don't stop to shoot. Once you build up that speed, you don't have to give it up. In PR, you almost certainly have to stop to shoot. It's quite gamey, so the acceleration could be left as it is to compensate.
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pGrim
Posts: 2
Joined: 2007-05-28 12:45

Post by pGrim »

Are we gonna see a gyro-stabilized main gun? :p
Surround
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Joined: 2006-12-10 23:49

Post by Surround »

Im with the warm up time. It would simulate situation when you enter the tank from the hatch. It will take at least 5 seconds to make the tank move. And it takes far more time to switch positions in tank. I have experience with that.
Surround
Posts: 609
Joined: 2006-12-10 23:49

Post by Surround »

Im with the warm up time. It would simulate situation when you enter the tank from the hatch. It will take at least 5 seconds to make the tank move. And it takes far more time to switch positions in tank. I have experience with that.
Wolfe
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Joined: 2007-03-06 03:15

Post by Wolfe »

pGrim wrote:Are we gonna see a gyro-stabilized main gun? :p
The APC's, linebackers, and even some .50 cals on jeeps already have this feature in-game. Surprised that it hasn't been applied to tanks.

And yes, 2-man crews always own 1-man crews, but personally I prefer only to drive/gun with someone I know and trust. Otherwise it's an 80 ton coffin.

When on a hill, others can see you easier than you can see them because of your dark outline against a light colored sky. Same with infantry. Make sure your background matches your color.
[KSK]Black Snake
Posts: 15
Joined: 2007-03-06 12:08

Post by [KSK]Black Snake »

I am too whit the warm up time and the arrow movable turret ;)

But my idea is: we have speedboost for many vehicles now why not for heavy armor? AND it would be amazing if there will be a fight-speed that means you can press CTRL/STRG/(crouch) for lower speed. that would be great for fighting while move forward :-P
Outlawz7
Retired PR Developer
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Post by Outlawz7 »

I just hate, when theres a damn solo tanker on a hill happily mowing down everyone with coax :evil:

I had a gunner on Zatar, before he CTD'd, we destroyed 4 M1A1s without taking any damage. We got clipped, but a 5 sec job with wrench fixed it...
Its basically all about coordination. I had a gunner on Daquin and got destroyed by a solo Abrams, because the damn gunner didnt keep his eyes on the fukin road and when the Abrams aimed at us, he kept spinning the turret around and screaming "where is he"... :d uh:

Its the drivers job to observe, gunners should just keep an eye on the front side of the tank :)
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Long Bow
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Post by Long Bow »

Well to get back to the original topic of seeking a hull down position, good luck with that in BF2. I have tried on Kashan to find a nice hull down position and it usually is not easy. I find that if you get the hull on the backside of a small rise you can't get the main gun down far enough to engage. Second is finding a spot where you have good gun position but it really isn't hull down. Last, on Kashan the whole middle of the map is one giant bowl, you don't always have a choice but to sit up on the hill side to engage targets.

Ideally it would be great to use more real world tactics in the tanks but sometimes it just dosn't work in game.
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