"Cunning" plan for forcing Squad Specialization

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Top_Cat_AxJnAt
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"Cunning" plan for forcing Squad Specialization

Post by Top_Cat_AxJnAt »

The boring background stuff:


We can all agree that a team is many times more effective if each squad specializes in one area; namely infantry, armour or air. It is also necessary that the team CO co-ordinates each of the different specialized squads because each specialization has its weaknesses and advantages but when they work as one, the effects of each of their weaknesses can be diminished significantly. However if the squads are not specialized in the first place, effective co-ordination between infantry, armour and air assets is incredibly difficult.


There has been and still is much discussion on how to encourage specialization among squads. However the fact that the squad system is hardcoded, makes more simple but effective changes impossible. I will leave such to your vast imaginations. ;)



What you are actually reading this too see:



I have a cunning plan that might just force squads to specialize into different areas. This being possible through the kit limiting system.

The kit limiting system encourages players to join squads because it is the only way to be able to have access to many types equipment. While the limited locations at which such equipment can requested and the numerous valuable abilities it offers players all require players to think ahead if they are to get the equipment and use it effectively.
This places significantly greater responsibility on squads leaders to plan ahead and therefore this in general helps to ensure that squads are organized and utilize tactics to a reasonable level.

But presently all players in a squad can request all types of equipment. However this means more than often squads are operating both infantry and armour assets and possibly air assets all at the same time. A squad leader cannot identify all the different threats that each individual assets faces, provide orders on how avoid or engage them effectively. Therefore he cannot co-ordinate all the different types of specialized assets and therefore planning ahead is very difficult.
Squads must be specialize in infantry or armour or air assets if they are to be effectively utilized.


So why not force squads leaders to choose whether all their squad members have access to infantry or armour or air equipment and therefore what type of equipment the squad specializes in!

But for goodness sake man how the damn hell can …..



When Squad leaders go to request their SL kit they are given the choice of not 1 kit but a number of kits, for the below example it is 3. Each SL kit allows the squad leader to place a unique type of rally point that offers a limited number of different kits, with the types of kits being dependent on the type of SL kit the squad leader requested.


Here is an example:


Infantry squad leader kit

All standard infantry kits (SAW, L-AT, Gren.) and possibly 2 crewmen kits and 1 pilot kit can be requested from an Infantry rally (crewmen and pilot debatable though).

This SL kit has the standard infantry equipement the present SL kit has.


Armour squad leader kit.

5 crewmen kits can be requested from an Armour rally. However NO standard infantry kits or pilot kits can be requested.

This SL kit has the standard abilities and equipement that the present crewman kit has aswell.



Air squad leader kit.

5 pilot kits can be requested from an Air rally. However NO standard infantry kits or crewmen kits can be requested.

The SL kit has the standard abilities and equipement that the present pilot kit has aswell.


Connecting ****:
For each different SL kit there would have to be a different type of rally point and if possible (in future) a different model. The model could reflect the nature of the rally. Love to hear your ideas on that becuase i have only sucky ones.

The number of infantry squad leader kits would be significantly greater than the number of armour squad leaders kit and even greater than the number of Air squad leader kits. For example on a 64 player game with both armour and air assets, one team would have access to:

6 Infantry squad leader kits.
2 Armour squad leader kits.
1 Air squad leader kit.

This would prevent half the team waiting at the airfield for a plane or heli to spwn becuase only 6 out of the entire team would have access to pilot kits.
The same would also go for armour.



PResently limited kits can also be requested from many other objects and vehicles. Therefore the the inablity or ablity to requests certain kits in relation to the SL kit their squad leader must remain the same for any object or vehicles that kits can be requested at.

UNLESS *the squad leader kit can affect the kits squad members are allowed to auqire (quatermaster acutaly dishes it out or not) at objects and vehicles other than rallypoints another solution must be found.

I dont know what is harcoded or not and thereofore i am in a poor position to suggests solutions if * is not possible.



Closing comments:


It is complicated but i am sure that the result of more specialized squads that are therefore better organized and utalise asset specific tactics better would be something any sane PR man or women would pay dearly for!

As i said above, it does have some serious problems in ensuring it does what it possibliy could however alittle discussion and debate and hopefully, a few comments from the DEVs about what is possible and not will go along way to finding some solutions.
Last edited by Top_Cat_AxJnAt on 2007-07-19 22:46, edited 1 time in total.
El_Vikingo
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Post by El_Vikingo »

Very Interesting...

Then again, everyone will go for the r3CoN SL squad kit.
Last edited by El_Vikingo on 2007-07-19 23:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Top_Cat_AxJnAt
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Post by Top_Cat_AxJnAt »

My brain is a mush and still is after 10 times 200m only a few hours ago and will not recover until the morning. The idea was pretty much written up from idea and arguments formed before the MUSHING so i expect to have to clear up a mess in the morning of miss understandings and confusion, possibliy on my part as well. So please look TO DEVELOPT cos the MUSH cant rather than big up all the flaws and holes to to much (problems = good, i just fear reading only probs...)!
Yahwhay
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Post by Yahwhay »

I agree with Vikingo, very interesting. This, if done right, could definitely improve gameplay and definitely place more emphasis on teamwork.
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ReaperMAC
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Post by ReaperMAC »

I like the idea.
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Top_Cat_AxJnAt
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Post by Top_Cat_AxJnAt »

El_Vikingo wrote:
everyone will go for the r3CoN SL squad kit.

R3con = Recon. Could you explain what such a kit would be about, purpose, squad specizliation ext.?

I am totaly open to other types of SL kits other than the 3 stated.

I also think this would be the perfect way to create proper sniper squads. For example:

Sniper squad leader kit

1 or 2 (dont know) snipers kit can be requested from a sniper rally point. However NO standard infantry, crewmen or pilot kits can be requested.

BUT the SL kit would NOT be equipted with a sniper rifle. A cool peice of spotting equipement would be nice but i cant think of any at mo. Something special and unique to enable easier ID of targets compared to standards SL and infantry men.


Another possible specizliazed squad is:


Anti-ARmour squad

2 H-AT's can be requested from the Anti-ARmour rally point. However no standard infantry, crewmen or pilot kits can be requested.

The SL kit would be equipeted with goodness knows what BUT NOT an ANTI TANK ROCKET or MISSILE! LOL

HOWEVER the after requesting a H-AT, it would be 6 -12 mins before you are alouded to request another (not sure on exact time). This would help balance out fact H-AT can be requested from rally.
Last edited by Top_Cat_AxJnAt on 2007-07-19 23:45, edited 1 time in total.
Longbow*
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Post by Longbow* »

I like your ideas , thats what we need now ( or for 0.7 as there won't be any patch for 0.6 imo )
Robbeh
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Post by Robbeh »

I take it by these rules you would not be able to request kits from CPs or APCs? unless there is someway of locking the squadmembers kit by the squadleaders kit... and what would happen if the squadleader did not decide on a officer kit?

one problem i can see is a quickloading squadleader feels like being an *** and creates a air/armour squad just for him and his budy and locks it effectively locking these assets from being used correctly by the rest of the team and keeping all the air/ground assets to his/herself?

there will defiantly need to be a system in place to prevent this and im not sure how much of the squad system the devs can change...

not too sure about the recon squad either tbh but having the squadleader as a spotter or something is definatly a step to stop its being abused too much

Other than that its a great idea and has my full support good post! :D
ArmedDrunk&Angry
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Post by ArmedDrunk&Angry »

a truly cunning stunt
I believe the "strategist" will be most happy with this plan.
It does sound semi workable.
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Top_Cat_AxJnAt
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Post by Top_Cat_AxJnAt »

ArmedDrunk&Angry wrote: I believe the "strategist" will be most happy with this plan.

Personaly i was actualy hoping my master, Black Adder would be most pleased.... :-(

Robbeh wrote:I take it by these rules you would not be able to request kits from CPs or APCs? unless there is someway of locking the squadmembers kit by the squadleaders kit... and what would happen if the squadleader did not decide on a officer kit?
We need the DEVs on this one regarding what is physicaly possible and waht is not.
Robbeh wrote: one problem i can see is a quickloading squadleader feels like being an *** and creates a air/armour squad just for him and his budy and locks it effectively locking these assets from being used correctly by the rest of the team and keeping all the air/ground assets to his/herself?

there will defiantly need to be a system in place to prevent this and im not sure how much of the squad system the devs can change...
On maps with armour, there woudl generaly be 2 Armour Squad leader kits. That would mean a maxium possible number of 12 playes would capable of operating armour (this excludes crewmen from Inf. Squads). Definitely enough in my mind for armour fun.

When it comes to locking, i generaly people only do it when they have a decent reason. BASICIALY - i trust enough players not lock. I dont trust them to employ high class specialized tactics but players can learn that over time.

Also remember there is the possiblity
that an Infantry Squad leader might be able to have 2 crewmen or 1 pilot in his squad. This would allow for a basic level of in squad armour/air and infantry co-operation. However personaly i would hope with time, as players improve there specialzied tactics and on most games there is a CO with VOIP, both the crewman kits and pilot kits could be remove from the INfantry squads rally point list of requestables.
A short term measure to help players adapt more easily.
Last edited by Top_Cat_AxJnAt on 2007-07-20 00:06, edited 1 time in total.
Outlawz7
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Post by Outlawz7 »

Erm, what if you have an Air squad full of people, that dont even know hwo to fly or if everyone wants to be in the Air squad, then people want to grab the Air SL kit right away and let only the few chosen ones to join their squad??

Dont forget the Smacktard Management here...
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El_Vikingo
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Post by El_Vikingo »

Aye, that's what I mean by a Recon Squad, ie sniper squad. First thing people will do is get one of these.

But by all means, if you can make people who join an INF squad to not enter tank!
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Robbeh
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Post by Robbeh »

Outlawz wrote:Erm, what if you have an Air squad full of people, that dont even know hwo to fly or if everyone wants to be in the Air squad, then people want to grab the Air SL kit right away and let only the few chosen ones to join their squad??

Dont forget the Smacktard Management here...
Exactly what i was trying to put across :p
If this kind of system is put in place there would definitely need to be some sort of anti-idiot protection otherwise there is a high chance that an entire teams game can be messed up by a couple of tards wanting everything to themselves.
geogob
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Post by geogob »

This is an excellent idea. That would be very interesting.

But I think it would require some sort of moderation. (Same goes for the commander kit). With this, kit attribution would be very crucial. I'd like to add these features in parallel:

- Put back in game some way to "remove" a bad commander (optional but...)
- When someone request commander position, change the method of attribution to a poll. (player X requested commander status. Vote Yes or No type of poll.)
- Make SL kits request to Commander instead to the virtual QM.

Or something along those lines. I'm just trying to figure out a kit moderation system; especially of squad leader kit are limited.
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Fracsid
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Post by Fracsid »

Overall So-so idea, with a couple good points and some not so good ones. Most likely hard if not impossible to code..

I'll be back to be productive tommorow, bed time for now.
Top_Cat_AxJnAt
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Post by Top_Cat_AxJnAt »

Fracsid wrote:Overall So-so idea, with a couple good points and some not so good ones. Most likely hard if not impossible to code..
Please eloborate becuase i dont know if you are refering to the orgninal post or the comments made by geogob!



I dont think we need any idiot protection becuase i do believe all players when they request an officer kit do understand some of the responsibility they are taking on. Often, they do not undestand it fully but enough is understand for them to feel the pressure of their squad mates if the dont forfill their duty. Harsh but true and realistic comments about failed squad leader most often lead to the SL resigning.

In an enviroment when the general idea exists (org. page) and therefore what all the SLs are doing is much more important than it is now, i believe becuase it is vital the team have relitavely competant SLs commanding the limited assets (armour, air), these SLs will feel the extra pressure and responsiblity. This again will be through there squad mates becuase often a squad members with goods SLs skills and intimidate his SL enough for him to stand down BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY all team members through text comments - exert more pressure - they want a good SL leading limited assets and the CO who can try to perwade gently a rogoue SL that is might be good to let some one else take over OR a good bollocking! :p

On an average quality server, i think 95% of players are really quite decent and can be reasoned with. The 5% are imature and quite dumb but the systems complex nature will be to our advantage becuase these persons will probaly be to slow to choose adn then request one of the more specialzied SL kits.
While the other 95% might not be clever, they can be reasoned with. SO if all a team members reason with any of those 95% who do not understand the responsiblity of leading a specialized squad and/or fail to attempt to forfill it, I am damn sure the system would be able to operate smoothly on an average quality server.
eggman
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Post by eggman »

yeah, nice concept .. has some potential :)
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geogob
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Post by geogob »

Yeah! you're probably right about the "no need for anti-stupidity" things. It's just that it's been a difficult week for PR gameplay wise. I'm loosing my faith some times :P

I do agree with the point that what I suggested is not a very good idea. Peer pressure should do the job.
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