Kits-Combat engie and Support (m249/minimi, GPMG/M240)

Eddie Baker · Post by **Eddie Baker** » 2007-08-01 00:06

AnRK wrote:Was just a stupid joke to be honest heh, interesting to know that you don't have to qualify as a machinegunner to use a LMG though.

It's a fun factoid. The automatic rifleman (SAW gunner) in a fire-team is the next most senior rifleman and second-in-command to the fire-team leader (at least in the Army, it might work differently in the Marines). The SAW is not considered a crew-served weapon and is not employed in the same way as a medium machinegun, which is why the Marines break them into separate MOSs, I guess.

However, in US infantry only the Marines have machinegunner as a separate MOS as described above by DOAW. They not only man the M240s in the company weapons platoon, but also the heavy machineguns (.50 cal and Mk-19 AGL) in the battalion weapons company, forming HMMWV-mounted combined anti-armor teams with the TOW gunners (0352). Everyone in a Marine rifle squad, if it has no attachments, has the MOS of rifleman (0311).

The Army has the same MOS for all its infantry riflemen (11B); pretty-much, if you're in the infantry career-field and aren't a mortar crewman or a First Sergeant, you're an 11B. They "fam-fire" all US small arms in Basic and get further practice/qualification with them in AIT. Whether or not you're assigned to an MG crew is pot luck based on your abilities and the needs of the Army. If you're a six and a half foot mutant, you're probably more likely to get the job, though.

Pasfreak, the automatic rifleman and grenadier kits are limited because in a rifle squad, they are always outnumbered by the plain riflemen, and since we are a reality mod, we are trying to reflect that. M240s are attached to the squad from another unit within the rifle platoon or company (Marines and Army light and Stryker infantry), or assigned by the unit leadership to a designated and trained gunner in one or more of the rifle squads based on mission essential tasks and terrain (Army mech infantry).

True, combat engineers are not part of an infantry rifle squad, but they most definitely (and not hardly) see combat. When conducting a breach they have to be right next to the riflemen.

nidpants · Post by **nidpants** » 2007-08-01 02:13

Agreed that combat engineers need to be a requested kit. Their purpose is far too specialized.

If you look at the kit limiting system, there's 1 grenadier and 1 support for every 8 players on the team. If you account for engineers and specialized troops like the AT and AA assets, this works out about right, though bumping it up to one per every 6 players wouldn't be so bad.

lonelyjew · Post by **lonelyjew** » 2007-08-01 06:42

How the hell is this idiotic thread still going?

This been brought up since kit limiting began a long time ago and I guess it just won't go away no matter how many times the devs answer it. If we get rid of kit limiting guess what happens; that's right, everyone and their neighbor is going to grab support kits.

pasfreak wrote: I've been playing PR ever since it was first released.

Right, and somehow you don't remember how everyone on either team was a support or medic? Either you're lying or have the idea that an army consisting of corpsmen and SAW gunners constitutes realism.

The idea solution to this problem would be to have squads with set kits available to them but seeing as the BF2 engine is limited this is probably impossible so we're stuck with either limiting the kit or allow the whole team to get support kits if they so choose. The latter unfortunately didn't work, won't work, and can't work.

I'm sorry if I'm coming of as a bit rude but the question of why limiting has been answered at least twice, in detail with good reasoning, by devs in this thread alone and countless times in other threads.

Post by **RikiRude** » 2007-08-01 08:31

Lonely Jew I was wondering the same thing as I read through it.

With SL spawning taken out (which I really want to see) this simply won't be an issue unless you spawn at a commanders truck, which should usually be by a firebase or DB anyways. I honestly don't mind having a random eng attached to my squad, simply for his C4 to take out defensive bunkers.

I honestly don't see the validity of this thread. I have played 20+ rounds maybe more and never do i find myself saying, ah man there aren't any support/grenadier kits! how hard is it to spawn at your RP and catch up with your squad. If this is a problem, you really aren't playing in the right squads. Or you're simply being too nit picky.

Zybon · Post by **Zybon** » 2007-08-01 09:00

lonelyjew wrote:How the hell is this idiotic thread still going?

Because there's also the topic of having engineer as a limited kit.

Maybe if engineer was split into 2 kits? One for supporting vehicles and one (limited) for working alongside infantry? Eh, just throwing it out there.

Viper5 · Post by **Viper5** » 2007-08-01 11:50

Well, if we were going on pure realism the Officer, Automatic Rifleman, Rifleman, and Grenadier kits for the US Army would be the base kits. Medics would also be limited to 1-2

lonelyjew · Post by **lonelyjew** » 2007-08-01 18:55

If the mod was going for complete realism over everything else tanks would need a dedicated loader(imagine the excitement of hitting the right mouse button to load he and left to load sabot and getting yelled at when you put in the wrong one), you would never respawn, a medic would not be able to magically revive you or do very much to "heal" a wound since your body is the only thing that can heal you, crewmen and engi's wouldn't be able to repair tanks to any serious degree, many maneuvers in jets would knock you out if not kill you and wreck the jet, etc, etc, etc. The game is still that, a game.

Zybon · Post by **Zybon** » 2007-08-01 19:58

I bring up splitting the kit not for realism, but for gameplay. I think it would be really useful to be able to request the engineer kit for repairing, c4, grappling, or mines much like people request LAT when they notice an APC nearby.

pasfreak · Post by **pasfreak** » 2007-08-01 20:09

Support kit shouldn't be so accurate. Right now its like any other computerized weapon.
I've shot an M60 before
It was the loudest mother f***ing gun I've ever used
It also kicked and bucked around quite a bit. you had to put your left hand on the check guard so you didn't break your jaw, and when you shot your whole body vibrated. lol...
But also, if you didn't keep enough control on it your shots went all over the place. some of them even hit the ground (and i was lying prone). and no, I'm not that bad of a shot at all.
This is the solution.