Removing the SL spawn; Poll

[indigo|blade]

Oh great. Now we have TWO threads on the same heated topic.

It seems to me that the only people who want to leave the SL spawn are those who want to spawn in and kill as quickly as possible. That has nothing to do with strategy.

Pah! I bet it's rigged. It'll be you damn yanks up to no good again! Can't even keep the computer games out of it!

Enough with the blanket generalizations.

The No votes aren't making assumptions about your play style and your nationality, so don't go there.

Make a useful contribution towards a solution or don't use your keyboard at all.

[zeidmaan]

A definite NO.
Without spawning on SL people will reset the rally every 20 meters. It would be: move 20 meters - wait long enough - set rally point - move 20 meters etc.
Also the rally points would always be VERY close the the flags. Probably as close as possible.

If you put it in a safe place, away from a flag so you have room to maneuver, than 99% of squads wont stick together.
Advance a bit - one guy gets killed - wait 30+ sec for him to spawn - wait 30+ sec for him to catch up - start moving - one guy gets killed - wait 60 sec for him - start moving etc
That would break up a squad faster than anything else.

Not to mention countless of times the rally will get destroyed splitting up a squad again.

Also no more "delaying spawn" at the beginning
That will usually mean walking at the beginning of the round if you want to stay together or lonewolfing.

All you leet "noobs tis is teh realiteh game" Yes voters what part of the post is not true, and what argument makes me mindless VBF2 lovin' lemmings ?

[fuzzhead]

as of 609, bunkers and firebase currently spawn jeeps every 5 minutes...

[tekkyy]

YES - better logistics and reinforcement feel to gameplay.

[nicoX]

Removing the SL spawn will break the teamplay coz then if a LM gets shot he will have to walk from rally/main and believe me, not many ppl would wait for him.

Exactly, but things have to be done about the round ending too fast. Removing SL spawn would be one idea.
In a way it's the squad leaders responsibility, but always I get that a team advances to fast towards the object.
I want a team to at least inspect the object first for a couple of minutes far away with binoculars. Have a sniper taking out insurgents before moving in.
It's to much running back and forth, getting killed going to spawn and back to objective again, over and over. That's not reality.

[A_COLOHAN]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.

[thebestcze]

No
The system as it is has its flaws, but i think there would be more if SL spawns were removed.

First, it would (i think) mean less fighting, more walking which I dont think anybody really wants that.
It would also probably mean that flags would be much harder to cap, as you will have to spawn outside each time you die and the enemy would outnumber your squad members as some would constantly be walking in to fight. This would make assault maps even more unbalanced than they already are.
It would also mean constant moving of the rally point, and maybe an even larger dependance on APCs.

ANyway, this is just what i think

[Wolfe]

Make a useful contribution towards a solution or don't use your keyboard at all.

Alright, that's enough of that. Before we take the position of high and mightly, let's consider our own words. Comments like that are counterproductive in and of itself. PR is a game. Have fun damnit!

And by the way, it's a bit confusing and time consuming to have to post the same argument on two separate threads constantly which is leading to abbreviated posts taken out of context. Read both threads before posting. Here it is again on this thread:

THE PROBLEM:

• Spawning on the SL is illogical and unrealistic. It's little more than zerging. As one person so eloquently put it, "I'd rather have to run to my squad leader's *** than climb out of it".

• The only difference between keeping or removing the SL spawn is 100 meters. Thus far, the majority of reasons given by those against removing the SL spawn is the unwillingness to run the extra 100 meters. If that's not a "I just want to get in there and kill" mentality, then I don't know what is.

• Spawning on a squad leader removes any fear of death. I have no fear of dying if I can re-spawn directly on the action 30 seconds later. This reduces the game to a rush-kill style of fighting.

• Spawning directly on a flag that your team doesn't control should never be possible. Currently, you can do this 3 ways: SL, apc, and commander truck. That is 3 ways too many. How should it ever be possible to spawn reinforcements on enemy-controlled territory other than the desire to spawn directly on the action?

• SL spawns (in addition to apc and commander truck spawns) reduce or eliminate the importance of defending flags. Why bother defending a friendly flag if I can spawn directly on the enemy flag? Watch the mini-map during play and you'll see this in action nearly every time. Your entire team, like lemmings, gravitate from one flag to the next, spawning as close to the action as they can with little regard for defense.

• All of these things place too much emphasis on individual squads and takes away emphasis from the team. It should be the other way around.

THE SOLUTION:

• Limit spawn locations to the main base, rally points, and commander bunkers/firebases.

• Rally points must be placed within the radius of a flag or bunker/firebase that your team controls. If you lose control of the firebase or flag, your rally point becomes inoperable.

THE EFFECT:

• Attacks against enemy or neutral flags would be launched from friendly flags, bunkers, or remote firebases, making these points much more important to operate and defend as a team.

• Rally points are no longer black holes from which infinite numbers of troops can appear behind enemy lines without any logical supply route from the front lines.

• Squad leaders are now responsible for keeping their squad alive through real life tactics instead of just keeping themselves alive through infinite ***-spawns as a tactic.

• Infantry is forced to be much more cautious how they run into battle because like real life, they'll be more fearful of death. God forbid should you value the life of the guy covering your back.

• Transportation will become logistically more important, just like real life. Jeep spawns will need to be modified to accommodate, and it's must more strategically fun to take a short jeep drive into the action than park a squad leader and zerg from it.

• Emphasis will be more towards team attack and defense strategy instead of individual squad or (as it is now) individual soldier strategy.

• Killing a solder will actually mean he's DEAD, and not about to spawn 30 seconds later 3 feet away from where he died.

It's the difference between killing through strategy, and strategy through killing. A "reality" mod should be "strategy, movement, execution" but right now it feels like "charge, kill, respawn"; very much like vanilla with realistic toys. Perhaps this is what some people want, but I doubt this style of play is what the devs had in mind and there are plenty of other mod options that offer it.

I challenge anyone who votes "no" to removing the SL spawn to show how SL zerg spawning enhances gameplay/strategy other than to help you kill faster. Thus far, the only argument presented against removing the SL spawn has been in essence: "I don't want to wait to play". Perhaps those people are playing the wrong mod.

[Outlawz7]

• Rally points must be placed within the radius of a flag or bunker/firebase that your team controls. If you lose control of the firebase or flag, your rally point becomes inoperable.

I'd still like my RPs to be set near a frontline, so if we attack and fail, we can regroup there.

How about having offense and defense RPs?
-offense RPs - have to be set 100 m away from ANY CP and have the radio shouter.
-defense RPs - can be set 25m within a friendly CP and have no radio shouter.

Defense RPs should not have the radio shouter, since inside a 50m circle there usually isnt a space, where the enemy couldnt find it. Also, the defending should have an advantage over attackers.

Offense RPs should ahve radio shouter, so the enemy can locate you, when they counter attack you. Eliminates that .5ish RP whorage, where you could come out of a house behind an enemy squad, becuase they had no idea RP was there.

[nicoX]

Spawn points are realistic, it's a area the army have secured.
The voting is equal so there is no chance for a complete removal, possibly change.

I agree with you Wolfe, the tempo must be slow down.

[gazzthompson]

The voting is equal so there is no chance for a complete removal, possibly change.

remember , the PR DEVS make the mod to fit there views of good game play , not for the masses, so even if they r equal it can be changed *hopefully*

[indigo|blade]

Wolfe, you amaze me.

You said, and I quote:

It seems to me that the only people who want to leave the SL spawn are those who want to spawn in and kill as quickly as possible. That has nothing to do with strategy.

and now:

Alright, that's enough of that. Before we take the position of high and mightly, let's consider our own words. Comments like that are counterproductive in and of itself. PR is a game. Have fun damnit!

High and mighty has nothing to do with it. Your blatant generalization of a hellofalot of players is childish at best. It absolutely deserves a response because it's completely false. You were wrong, admit it.

Frankly, I'm disgusted at the arrogance of a lot of the posts I've seen lately. Some of you guys think you have the devs in your back pockets and that they should "Obviously" change their mod to your specific needs. Make your case and take a step back to see what happens.

Whew, glad that's off my chest. Now I'll go ahead and answer all of your(Wolfe's) bullet points in another post.

[Wolfe]

I'd still like my RPs to be set near a frontline, so if we attack and fail, we can regroup there.

Don't you think the firebase already does this? Firebases are placed within 100m of an enemy controlled flag. Either spawn from the firebase or place a rally near it. 100m is nothing. Just have to keep it defended.

It also feels much more realistic to me.. like a temporary forward attack base instead of some small pile of backpacks with no meaning.

[Wolfe]

Your blatant generalization of a hellofalot of players is childish at best.

Can we stop with the namecalling? I have done nothing to disrespect you. My "blanket statement" is based on observation through 40+ hours/week gameplay. Not that I need to qualify an observation, but if you disagree then present examples not personal attacks. I stand by my original statement which was:

There are two types of players:

• Those who want to win by killing
• Those who want to win by strategy

The first type is always in favor of any game feature that provides the fastest road to killing another player. This includes advocating multiple spawn locations near the action, low spawn times, and super accurate weapons at range. In this case, those who are against removing the SL spawn seem to be against it solely because it would slow down their ability to kill quickly and pwn.

The majority of public non-clan players seem to be this type. Kill, kill, kill. If you disagree, it only takes a glance at the mini-map during gameplay to realize that most players zerg to the flag with the most action, even at the expense of leaving defensive flags undefended. And with the knowledge that they can respawn close to the action if they die, there is no fear of death. Rush, rush, rush. Kill, kill, kill. Zerg, zerg, zerg.

And who can blame them? There are far too many places to spawn that have nothing to do with controlling flags. In fact, there are not one, not two, but THREE easy methods of spawning directly on a flag that you don't even control! wtf? Squad leader, apc, and commander truck. ALL THREE of these spawn methods should be removed if not only for that reason alone. How is it anywhere near realistic or strategic to spawn on flags you down own?

And as for rally points, I think placement should be limited to an area around a flag you control, not placing a magical black hole out in the wilderness deep in enemy territory.

The only spawn that should be allowed away from a friendly flag point is a commander's fire base. Maybe then people would be more likely to employ teamwork in capturing and defending flags if their spawn options were limited to team goals rather than individual squad goals.

Do you mean to say that people who want to spawn directly on the SL do so for some other reason than they want to be directly on the action? What other reason could there be? None has been presented.

[indigo|blade]

Spawning on the SL is illogical and unrealistic. It's little more than zerging. As one person so eloquently put it, "I'd rather have to run to my squad leader's *** than climb out of it".

Listen, all of these "unrealistic" arguments have been shot to hell by some other guy in that other thread, I forget his name, sorry bud. By the end of that line of thinking it gets you to "one death = game over". None of us want that so stop claiming "Realism".

The only difference between keeping or removing the SL spawn is 100 meters. Thus far, the majority of reasons given by those against removing the SL spawn is the unwillingness to run the extra 100 meters. If that's not a "I just want to get in there and kill" mentality, then I don't know what is.

You claim to want strategy, but you think SL spawning as a feature and resource is confined to its distance from the RP? That's funny. We regularly attack a CP from at least 2 different directions, one from *relatively* the RP position, and one from *relatively* the SL's position. That's sound strategy in my book.

Spawning on a squad leader removes any fear of death. I have no fear of dying if I can re-spawn directly on the action 30 seconds later. This reduces the game to a rush-kill style of fighting.

Removing the SL spawn will not all of the sudden make everyone fear dying in a computer game. That won't ever happen. I have NEVER stated that I wanted to leave SL spawning in because I wanted to rush 'n kill or run 'n gun or whatever the hell you want to call it. Quote me or whoever else it was where you took this from big guy.

Spawning directly on a flag that your team doesn't control should never be possible.

Possibly. I've posted elsewhere about a proposed compromise where this wouldn't be possible.

SL spawns (in addition to apc and commander truck spawns) reduce or eliminate the importance of defending flags. Why bother defending a friendly flag if I can spawn directly on the enemy flag? Watch the mini-map during play and you'll see this in action nearly every time. Your entire team, like lemmings, gravitate from one flag to the next, spawning as close to the action as they can with little regard for defense.

You should come play on the [DVB] server some evening when we're on. I think you'll have a whole new outlook on my squad play. We almost always end up defending for 70-90% of the game. We also usually direct the other squads so the "Pubbing Ping Pong" from CP to CP doesn't happen.

All of these things place too much emphasis on individual squads and takes away emphasis from the team. It should be the other way around.

In my experience the teamplay is better than ever in v0.6, I suggest you play in the tournament here or OpReal or join an active group playing PR. It's usually the folks you play with that determine your enjoyment!

Find yourself a good commander(or become one yourself) and make it happen! It's up to the players to cooperate.

Limit spawn locations to the main base, rally points, and commander bunkers/firebases.

Rally points must be placed within the radius of a flag or bunker/firebase that your team controls. If you lose control of the firebase or flag, your rally point becomes inoperable.

I have a feeling you don't realize how frustrating this will make your gameplay. I seriously hope this doesn't happen.

It's the difference between killing through strategy, and strategy through killing. A "reality" mod should be "strategy, movement, execution" but right now it feels like "charge, kill, respawn"; very much like vanilla with realistic toys. Perhaps this is what some people want, but I doubt this style of play is what the devs had in mind and there are plenty of other mod options that offer it.

I challenge anyone who votes "no" to removing the SL spawn to show how SL zerg spawning enhances gameplay/strategy other than to help you kill faster. Thus far, the only argument presented against removing the SL spawn has been in essence: "I don't want to wait to play". Perhaps those people are playing the wrong mod.

"I don't want to wait to play".

Here, I'll iron out the strongest point for voting No:

It will be infinately harder to manage the individual squads.

[indigo|blade]

Let me quote a guy much smarter and more experienced than me:

Imagine everyone dying in an engagement except for the squad leader on Kashan Desert, all of the vehicles are either destroyed or used, and you're on foot.

Squad leader: "Guys, I'll meet you back here at my position in 15 or 20 minutes....er....just wake me up when you get here."

Imagine everyone surviving except for your squad leader:

Squad leader: "Guys, I'm spawning in 20 seconds. I'll try to catch up to you as soon as possible"

Squad Member: "SL, what do you want us to do in the meantime?"

Squad Leader: "I have no freakin' idea what's going on there right now. I'm 5 miles away on foot climbing a mountain between main base and the objective."

If "realism" is the reason for not wanting to spawn on a squad leader, consider the fact that soldiers do not magically appear in APCs, rally points, commander supply trucks, or firebases in real life either. If it is realism that you want, you spawn once and get killed once. In real life, you live once and die once.

Many of the mechanics of the game are "metaphors" or abbreviated representations of real-life processes. For instance, building a bunker requires more tools and materials than a shovel. Firing a rifle and maintaining that rifle to be dependable and not jam requires that it is cleaned and taken care of. Does anyone ever have their PR rifle jam? Does anyone ever clean their rifle in PR? Has anyone gone to a formal Tank Training program? No. You press "E" to enter, use the directional keys to move around, aim with your mouse and left click to fire. Again, this is not reality. It is an abreviated representation of a real life process.

The act of squad members spawning on a squad leader is a metaphor for "unity". It is the squad leader stating that alone, he is nothing without the members of his squad. The alternative is a SL rushing in alone as Rambo would and being killed. Instead, the squad leader uses enough discipline and forethought to hold-back, realize the importance of his members presence, allowing his squad to reunite, and give it another shot. If this "metaphor" of unity is removed, then so will what I enjoy about being a squad leader in PR. Just my opinion though.

Neo

[indigo|blade]

Can we stop with the namecalling? I have done nothing to disrespect you. My "blanket statement" is based on observation through 40+ hours/week gameplay. Not that I need to qualify an observation, but if you disagree then present examples not personal attacks. I stand by my original statement which was:

Wolfe, no one called you a name bud.

You put all of us in one boat that most of us don't belong on, and I'm calling you on it.

[fuzzhead]

The idea is that if everyone was killed except for the squad leader, the squad leader would have to do something like what he would do in real life: Run the fuck away, or find a hole in stay in it.

Im sure it would take a couple weeks but the whole mindset about the way players look at spawns would be probably change alot. It wouldnt be so much 'how can I get quickest into the action'. But rather 'what is the best tactical position to reinforce from'.

[RustyBandSaw]

If the SL spawn is removed, RP's should be more difficult to recognize and destroy.

[RikiRude]

Yes, I don't like SL spawning. It's too gamey compared to just having RPs your spawn point.

For a simple look at it here's what it's broken down to.

You are approaching an enemy CP. Your squad places a RP which has to be what, 100 meters away from the CP or something like that. Your squad gets on the flag and it starts going down. Enemy attacks trying to clear you guys out. Now here's the kicker.

A: With SL spawning in effect, the SL goes inside a locker room building or something, and as the attackers try to clear it out guys just keep spawning and coming out of nowhere. Same thing for the guys trying to cap the flag, enemies keep coming or maybe even spawning right in front of you. LAME!

B: With out SL spawning, the guys trying to cap the flag are killed, except the SL. The attackers know that they faced a full squad, and they know they dropped 5 guys, so they know there was one more left, and they can be expecting 5 in a little while.

I don't know about you, but I like situation B alot more, and it seems more realistic to me. Plus spawning at your RP gives you a chance to get a limited kit. It promotes variety in your squad instead of just having riflemen and medics spawn in the midst of combat.