Conquest without flags?

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DarkTalon
Posts: 711
Joined: 2007-03-22 00:17

Conquest without flags?

Post by DarkTalon »

just wondering if any large scale tests have been done on large maps, with lots of vehicles and no flags.

while the flag system does have a semi real aspect (of capturing strategic points) in large scale battles such as kashan no military would focus on getting a little villige or bunker, their objective would be to get rid of the enemy base, and anyone near it.

think about it, would you have your army crawl up to an ACTIVE ENEMY AIRBASE, capturing and securing every structure you found? I would organize armor units, aircraft divisions, etc. and have them coordinate an attack directly on the enemy base as soon as possible.

the game would be decided by tickets, not by flag bleeding, but by killing, the more you kill the more you win? you can capture as many territories as you want in RL without even firing a shot, but if the enemy is still alive, what good have you done?

I realize the flags are put in to make the game feel like you are "advancing" toward an enemy stronghold. but maybe PR could push the limit and combine the organized and strategic minds of all the players on a (good) server and have them develop a strategy, and execute it however they want. winners won't be determined by who can capture a flag the fastest and move on, but who can flank an enemy tank group, find a player made outpost that the commander built and call for a SU-25 to bomb it or just use transport helos to drop endless infantry into their base.

Intelligence
there is no zig-zag path the enemy will follow as it captures every flag. a commander can't say
"since the US can only attack the north village, then as long as your squad holds N village they cant do anything. *chuckle* "
recon teams would have to be used to find out how the enemy is getting to your base and that information has to get to another unit to intercept them.

Commander placed Strategic points
commanders would have to create outposts in the field to resupply armor/helos in the field (maybe an A-10 could land on a road and get some bombs from a commander placed supply station.

maybe some new assets could be used
-helo landing marker: it's an H,shows helicopters where to land in the middle of the desert :mrgreen:

-commander placed engineer humvee: every outpost needs one

-ammo cache: where else you going to get ammo in the middle of the desert

-med cache: bleeding in an isolated outpost in the middle of the desert, grab some morphine, it's on the house!

-cammo netting: for a discreet, yet semi-obvious outpost in the middle of the desert.

-better sandbags/hesco barriers can't let the enemy just walk on in and grab a cup of tea, can we now?

so these "commander bases" would be a fall back point for infantry, aircraft and armor, and maybe even a mortar base (when they come)

Conclusion
i don't know if this has ever been done, but i would do it if i could just to see how people would play this map, if this map had it's own gamemode it would be called "war" because really, thats what it is.

and because i can't make a thread without some kind of image...

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heres a concept map i made, it would have several interesting places for players to make their own chokepoints, no neutral structures (maybe if the idea became successful we could slowly add more complexity to the maps to create more chokepoints.)
it has a river, to make a command base all the more valuable across a "difficult to traverse" barrier. the mountains give smart recon units an advantage and stop tank shells

and my favorite aspect is the highway, it would be the fastest (and smoothest) way to get from point A to point B, smart commanders would fortify it to give their armor units an extra advantage.

if you have any ideas for CPless maps or anything of the sort feel free to post it here.

thanks for reading!
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Rhino
Retired PR Developer
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Post by Rhino »

I aint going to read the entire post above but having a quick look over it, what you are suggesting is we make a "team death match" which to be honest I dont see working out too well, the way to win will just be to camp bits of the map and bomb the **** out of the enemy and use vehicles/weapons that where just easy to kill/hard to die with.
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youm0nt
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Joined: 2007-03-16 15:13

Post by youm0nt »

So it would be basically a team deathmatch but, enhanced, I guess. It would probably work with both teams with very good players but other than that, I don't think it would work well in public servers. It sound fun though.
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agentscar
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Joined: 2007-06-25 04:26

Post by agentscar »

Actually,real militaries would focus on capturing bunker complexes for FOB's (Foward Operation Base) and would in some situations cap a village for either a FOB or to influence the citizens there...lol...but most actual flags in PR are under the ground so it's really just like taking an objective,not a flag.A team deathmatch would be insane on here.the only near not realistic objective point in Kashan are the villages...but hey I just think in my little head the village is being used as an FOB so,we must take it...
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DarkTalon
Posts: 711
Joined: 2007-03-22 00:17

Post by DarkTalon »

[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Rhino;519905']I aint going to read the entire post above but having a quick look over it, what you are suggesting is we make a "team death match" which to be honest I dont see working out too well, the way to win will just be to camp bits of the map and bomb the **** out of the enemy and use vehicles/weapons that where just easy to kill/hard to die with.[/quote]

more or less, but conquest is essentially the same thing, only you know where your enemy is in conquest, but this gamemode would really bring out the command assets that make PR unique from most other mods, instead of capturing a flag, you have to find/destroy enemy "mini-bases" and push them back.
it does encourage killing, but that would not stop people from fulfilling support roles.

think of it as al basrah without caches and with insurgents having symmetric/equal forces as the british.

[quote="agentscar""]Actually,real militaries would focus on capturing bunker complexes for FOB's (Foward Operation Base) and would in some situations cap a village for either a FOB or to influence the citizens there...lol...but most actual flags in PR are under the ground so it's really just like taking an objective,not a flag.A team deathmatch would be insane on here.the only near not realistic objective point in Kashan are the villages...but hey I just think in my little head the village is being used as an FOB so,we must take it...[/quote]
the capturing is not realistic, captured control points should be determined by the strength of the force occupying, not who was the last team there.
as far as forward operations bases, very rarely are there structures sitting in the middle of the desert, we could take advantage of PRs commander emplacement system to have players make their own, under fire. plus in conquest as of now the enemy can predict exactly where the enemy forward operating base will be, with this, they have to use recon teams/scout choppers/light vehicles etc, then call for heavy support, like in reality.
Last edited by DarkTalon on 2007-10-31 03:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Rhino
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Post by Rhino »

no conquest is not TDM, it is to represent in kinda a bad way the area of the battle filed under the control of your team, but as it turns into wack a model is why we use AAS. Also if you have not noticed when you capture enough flags, you will make the other team bleed tickets in both conquest and *** to represent you have the most control of the map. Tickets dont just go down from killing.

and ehhh, capturing points is determined by the strength of the force there, the flag can only be captured by your team if you have more of your guys on the flag than the enemy. If there is no one defending it then thats the players fault.

the only way your game mode would work is in a touney or some other situation like that, where you had popper communication etc. In a public game it would simpley not work, players would be all over the map not knowing what to do, hoping they could run into a enemy and kill them. And in the situation like a touney, the players would strudy the map / game mode enouth times to know its weak points, like where the best camping spots are on the map and exploit them.
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Outlawz7
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Post by Outlawz7 »

Basically 'rape the enemy base' mode.
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mammikoura
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Post by mammikoura »

I like the suggestion. But the problem is that you would need 64 teamplayers to play the map like it's supposed to be played. And this would mean that 99% of the time on public servers it would be more or less, as Outlawz described, "rape the enemy base mode"

And there would be very few maps which would suit this kind of game mode. So we would probably need new maps designed for this game mode.
zardez
Posts: 128
Joined: 2007-10-14 17:18

Post by zardez »

hmm i think it could work if you removed the vehicle aspect from it. vehicles would just make it whoever has the better tank/jets win, i think it would work on a smaller map maybe 4 times the size of street, infantry only, with a certain number of team lives, every time you die you lose on of your teams tickets. first team to zero loses, pretty straight forward
Simmage
Posts: 138
Joined: 2007-10-10 02:13

Post by Simmage »

Cool idea, one problem. Human and Gamer nature would f**k it all up!
fuzzhead
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Post by fuzzhead »

there was a more 'open concept style' game mode that eggman had in mind before he got caught up in work.

in this game mode there would be no flags and randomized start locations, and would need to establish bunkers in order to advance towards the enemy.

yea i agree a more open style map/game mode would be really refreshing and very replayable.
Warmagi
Posts: 299
Joined: 2007-09-17 12:14

Post by Warmagi »

Maybe if each team could place their own temporary bases, like CP but temporary. They could dig in in a place of their choice, and if they loose it CP disapears. But anyway I think future is in a objective game mode, where u need to do various thing (destroy that, immobilize this in order to..., capture that, advance here, capture the airfield then advance with air transport here, or a pier and use boats to get... and so on, and the other team would defend and prevent somethin like quake wars).
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zardez
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Joined: 2007-10-14 17:18

Post by zardez »

yeah, so although the map is big the battle is localized to prevent walking in cyber space for 3 and a half days. i like it
Doom721
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Joined: 2006-07-30 13:32

Post by Doom721 »

I like the idea, but there would have to be a different incentive to finishing the game other than tickets.

Rough quote here, "Human and gamer nature would ruin it"

Tickets = Kills = Win

But maybe if you randomize FOB's and make the objective to destroy those FOB's ... or command places them pre-game it could work.

I just want to see a more open game ;)
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*spacecadett*
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Post by *spacecadett* »

true dat... getting tierd of flags...

this might be hard to implement in a pub element tho! just seeing as some are people have a tendency to spawn rape ect. i see a map with no flags working under a somewhat controled element
Last edited by *spacecadett* on 2007-10-31 16:11, edited 1 time in total.
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doop-de-doo
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Joined: 2009-02-27 12:50

Re: Conquest without flags?

Post by doop-de-doo »

I would like to bump "this old thread".

I believe the OP may have over-complicated the outlook on this game mode.

Yes. It would be a team deathmatch with tickets representing the amount of available reinforcements an army has left. The goal is out-manveuver and eliminate the enemy's army, pure and simple.

Don't make random starting points
Leave bases and DODs as they are
The teams decide which part of the terrain suits their needs.
Done.

This will make the armies focus on each other instead of flags/fobs/caches.

:evil: B4TM4N :evil:
40mmrain
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Re: Conquest without flags?

Post by 40mmrain »

command and conquer already exists.

no one plays it for no good reason.
CTRifle
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Re: Conquest without flags?

Post by CTRifle »

40mmrain wrote:command and conquer already exists.

no one plays it for no good reason.
Well I think the main this is sometimes the lack of communication and teamwork, people rather go by themselves then to work together to defend/attack.

At least thats what Ive noticed while playing it
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doop-de-doo
Posts: 827
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Re: Conquest without flags?

Post by doop-de-doo »

40mmrain wrote:command and conquer already exists.
Wrong game mode there, 40mmrain. This wouldn't be CnC. There should be no ATT/DEF objectives in this alternative game mode being suggested. Just your team vs the other. The way god meant it. :p
CTRifle wrote:Well I think sometimes the main reason behind this is the lack of communication and teamwork, people rather go by themselves then to work together to defend/attack.

At least thats what Ive noticed while playing it
Those same people will do that in any game mode. INS/AAS/etc.

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Pvt.LHeureux
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Re: Conquest without flags?

Post by Pvt.LHeureux »

This was tested on Wicca's map "Karenze Offensive" before he put flags on it. I think he didn't go too well.
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