Real maps

[Sadist_Cain]

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_e ... a_1990.jpg

I'm not posting more, you know what a real map looks like

OK I know the Devs have made their decision with the minimap, and I hope to god they got rid of it cos soldiers dont jog round holding a garmin in front of their face spotting enemies on it.

However is it possible to make the bigger map more realistic? with relief markers and trees and such, instead of just an overhead shot of the area. It's always cool to look on a plain coloured map, designate your destination and find an awesome arry of bushes trees hills etc

[Rhino]

as far as I know in r/l troops are issued with both aerial photos (ie, the minimaps we have now) and normal maps for there missions. would need confirming with the MIs thou.

[Sadist_Cain]

Very true, especially in this day an age of the UAV. Aswell as for troops travelling long distances, lotsa satillite recon will be given.

However Back in the day! (last week...) On the Front line often the satillite wouldnt be in the correct position and when the photos are taken and dispatched to the foreward command the RL aerial photos are given to experianced personnel to be combed through by analyzers to pick out key enemy positions and such. The results are then transcribed onto a clearly visible combat map (hard to look through trees in a high/low res photo to find the enemy OP whilest under fire).
SLs will be shown the satillite Recon and the standard Ordnance Maps During a combat brief (something we cant have)

Perhaps enabling the CO to have access to the real photos? or Is it possible at all for the CO to be able to Deploy a UAV (no minimap please ) and for 30 seconds have the satillite camera back? maybe make the camera black n white and grainy to make it like a uav. long reload time of course.

This could Simulate your soldiers in combat with their effective combat maps plus some sat recon. and the CO back at base with the detailed maps coordinating the men on the ground

Correct me someone in the forces now cos 6 years is a long time

[Clypp]

*Whistles*


This is an early version, the finished version is not uploaded yet.

Rhino, if you guys have another idea in mind for the minimap can you PM me so I don't spend too many hours doing some other ones.

Cain, do you have a version of a military battlefield map that you can post or describe? I'd like clarification on military specific attributes to include.

[Rhino]

Rhino, if you guys have another idea in mind for the minimap can you PM me so I don't spend too many hours doing some other ones.

well I like your contour maps, just I prefer the minimaps, I just crave the detail on them hehe. What I would really like is to be able to have both maps in game, thou that dosent look possible

thou ye, things like the tunnel, waterfall and caves you need to fix the contors on really too, but looks good sofar, would also put little tree markers here and there in the tree areas and put the radio tower on the map too

[Clypp]

well I like your contour maps, just I prefer the minimaps, I just crave the detail on them hehe. What I would really like is to be able to have both maps in game, thou that dosent look possible

I tested this in game and I like the contour map. It makes trip planning easier because you can follow the contours as well as find roads and paths easier. I might be biased though.

Nonetheless, you can use either map if you manually swap it out of the client.zip file.

thou ye, things like the tunnel, waterfall and caves you need to fix the contors on really too, but looks good sofar, would also put little tree markers here and there in the tree areas and put the radio tower on the map too

Tunnel is already fixed, as is the waterfall and the tower(symbols added) Where are the caves?

I tried the tree symbols mixed in for a bit but they don't look too good and nearly every example I have from the internet just uses green with no symbols (Unless there is a marsh)

[Sadist_Cain]

OOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!! me like contour map lots!!!! defineatly needs more detail, such as the trees, marker points of the bunkers etc (if you can add some sketching of possible enemy positions thatd look more authentic too )

IRL Infantry SLs dont have time to decrypt high res sat photos while in combat, though they look pretty with the details
Tis important to remember though we have lotsa high tech stuff involved the army does still keep lots of things low tech (aint broke dont fix) e.g. the huge complex decks of aircraft carriers aren't organised by computers but often a thing nicknamed the "Ouji board" and its just a model ship with nuts an bolts to represent planes. still used, still works

I know for a fact that in iraq the infantry will have a standard urban map (not photo) and each building will be numbered. Foreward Command will have sat photos and other such things with the same numbers on buildings. SL's then coordinate what building theyre in and in what direction, so air support can strike down on an insurgents house without blowing up the friendlies house

It just adds something else to gameplay to have a proper ordnance map where you have to read the terrain markings and figure out the best way of combat, instead of looking at a picture of it.

EDIT http://www.custermen.com/Maps/ArmyMaps.htm Check out some of those old school combat maps Bear in mind though theyre old these are the foundations with which modern mapping and warfare are founded upon

Clypp as for real combat maps give me a bit I'll PM you with some details tonight once Daddy comes home lol meanwhile check out some symbols on Ordnance survey maps, same style (just people wont need warning of campsites)

[Rhino]

Nonetheless, you can use either map if you manually swap it out of the client.zip file.

you will get kicked by PB.

[Sadist_Cain]

Seriously though! add some tree markers to that (Deciduos, conifourous, and that other type),
crater markings,
AA markers,
Remove the auto update of vehicle locations on map just have the spawn points mapped out Perhaps using the standard Nato style of map symbols (for coalition forces only of course) http://www.militaryfactory.com/military_map_symbols.asp just a small example, seems to be all I can find except for the more complicated defination of the full Nato system here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APP-6a


The BRILLIANCE of this is that different armies can have different intelligence levels. For example the british on basrah will be well prepared have everything mapped out buildings numbered etc. and be really organised.
The insurgents maps may appear drawn with pencil, parts scribbled out as theyre destroyed, or just for effect so depending on the army depends on their intelligence instantly.

P.s. theres a Nato Map symbols pack for Armed Assault available.... just saying...

[Clypp]

I have not experienced the PB kick yet, but my testing has been brief.

I'm not a fan of the tree markings, they just clutter the map IMO. Crater locations wont happen because that destroys the maps credibility. I assume the artillery/bomb strikes are fairly recent where a map would have been produced a few weeks or months before a conflict. For this reason I am thinking of leaving out the British tents.

Military unit markers are nice, but I'm not sure how useful they will be in this size and tactical conditions. I have no idea how the dynamic elements work anyway.

[duckhunt]

awesome clypp! I like it.

How would you feel about doing every map? Im not saying we are definatley going with this, but if we decided, would you be up for it once a few details were sorted out?

[Sadist_Cain]

Crater locations wont be pinpointed. However the CO would know when Higher Command dropped arty on the area, so hed sketch some crater symbol markings on his main combat map, which would probably be copied by other SL's.

With regards to trees and such things. A map like OGT is predominantly Bamboo so it's fine having the areas of bamboo shaded green, areas without bamboo plain etc.

If you have a grouping of a perticular type of tree that will be marked on the map, perhaps not exactly outlined but a tree marker will be there letting you know that the terrain type changes. also useful for referance markings while moving, that is if we remove the minimap and EVERYTHING on it, you wanna find out where you are look at the map!

Plus I think it would be could if you could overlay an accurate scale grid clypp (useful if we get rid of range markers etc.) and also incooperate one grid bottom left hand corner cut up into 6 figure grid refences


http://www.countrywalkers.co.uk/gridref.html

If you remove the easy by eye navigation (Like I hear has been done with move smoke etc for 0.7) and simple includ a grid square cut up like that its quite easy to start saying without the need of the cut up grid "Enemy APC in grid ref 264.358!!"

Adding this level of navigation will have many bonuses. My favorite is that lone wolfs wont know where the hell they are and wont be able to live for long. also that those with experiance who have a desire to play this game properly will be more effective than quick clicking in combat. Making finding and locating your target a task of map reading and coordination osunds like reality to me

Edit:
Map definately needs a lil work to combatisize it. e.g. radio tower is a must. tents and such would be sketched on the map (theoretically so they can be scrubbed out later) and how about having certain enemy CPs as Isolated tents, bunker and such. that way on the map you can simple have a sketch of a line indicating enemy forces approching from that direction. So whereas you know where some flags are, with one your forced to search for it with your squad.
Will need coordination without seeing where the lil blue dots r going

[Clypp]

awesome clypp! I like it.

How would you feel about doing every map? Im not saying we are definatley going with this, but if we decided, would you be up for it once a few details were sorted out?

I was planning to do one forested map and one urban map and see how it looked. I think I will try Al Basrah next. If it turns out nice and you guys like it, I can probably do more and/or transfer my color/font set to someone else. My lead times are rather...unreliable, especially with FH2 coming soon.

I'm really just looking for feedback now. Perhaps I should have waited till I got my updated version uploaded(trenches, special symbols, some contour corrections). I will add a magnetic north and a scale yet. Feel free to mark up the map if you have any suggestions.

Cain, the devs already have an overlay with their coordinate system. Perhaps it would be better if it was physically on the map, but I'm not sure. the detail blocks will be too cluttered if they are a 10x10 grid (according to the grid size currently used.) According to my references stuff it usually written onto topo maps in purple, so should I draw purple X's on the craters or so?

As for CPs, I just thought of something. A circle can go around the CP center with a 100m radius. This will mark out the CP as well as assist in bunker, firebase and rally point placement.

[BloodBane611]

That's an awesome contour map. That's really great work. What program are you using for that?

[Clypp]

That's an awesome contour map. That's really great work. What program are you using for that?

Photoshop, Wilbur and L3DT. There's a tutorial in the Community editing forum under the "Topographic minimap" topic.

[Sadist_Cain]

the detail blocks will be too cluttered if they are a 10x10 grid

*sigh* how I long for a fellow hiker lol. with 6 figure grids you dont
have a 10x10 grid in each box, you figure it out for youreself where it would be. this way you can easily say its in grid 10,10 and you have a large grid to search through... HOWEVER if you say its in grid 105, 105 then you know that means hes dead centre in the grid 106,104 and its one "point" up and right of the centre. see what I mean? easy system once its caught on, already used even by scouts lol

and I havn't had long and only had microsoft paint (downloading photoshop now )
Now Clypp I've completely ruined your lovely artwork but hopefully youll see what I'm trying to show you and can take it and work your magic with it

I've stuck on only some map symbols that are used to describe various land features. TBH ogt is a hard map to put symbols on (unless you have a panda bear one for bamboo )




OK so we have markings where there are craters, the bigger the markings the larger the craterfield. {East of recon post is a big one}

Cliff face markings showing "vertical" areas where youll pretty much fall off an die. see these west of south bridge.
Screes (look like lil crater fields) these are steep areas of rock which arent vertical but youll slip down them, maybe be injured. these are ESE of north bridge and West south west of south bridge (areas where you slip)
and the lil blue bits (which ended up looked like puddles, scrap that then) are what you make reeds and marshland look like (for example the marshland where you find the barrat on river qwai)

Really dont have the tools, time or ability to do anything more or better right now. but things like the vegitation change where there are trees on the shoreline and it changes to pure bamboo in the jungle, that would be on the map.
There needs to be symbols to define where those trees are and then you can see the shading of where the bamboo thicket begins.
A spot like the trenchs is somewhere youd sketch in a symbol by the CO for enemy fortifcations (Watch this space) but you wouldnt be too sure exactly whats there.
The dockhouse you may put a question mark for enemy River craft sketched on by CO again

The point is a good map of the area is more detailed thatn a satillite pic cos you have all the pictures etc. showing you where and what everything is (forget that youve played the map before and know what it is )

I don't mean to hijack your ideas at all Clypp m8 I just wanna show you some of the authentic symbols used as I'm a keen hiker and have maps borrowed from my dad/in laws army days.
So I too am rather keen to seen some good effective Ordnance survey maps lol

Also heres another resource for you for some symbols used http://www.csuchico.edu/lbib/maps/MAP3.GIF

[Clypp]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I am still not sure whether the crater locations would be included on a military map. Once they hit, they seem to be of little importance unless located on a road or runway. I'm not opposed to including them, I would just like to hear more about this.

One thing I have been thinking about a lot is cliffs. There are no true verticals, but everything over 60 degrees is unwalkable and might as well be. Calling these cliffs or screes though, would make the map very cluttered with cliff and scree markings (all along the river save some spots) and, more importantly, will take a **** load of time. Once again, I am not opposed to adding these, but I think the dense contour lines are more than enough indication. Most maps will not have as detailed contours (every 10 vertical m in this example I think) and on them the cliffs is more important.
What are the small circles drawn on some hills (both on the North between t bridges and near the south bridge)? EDIT: Need to up my reading comprehension

You are swaying me on the tree types though. If you can find the official marking for bamboo you win a prize!

With respect to the unknowns, this is not practical. The same map is shared between both teams. Only the overlays can display team specific info.

[Sadist_Cain]

Thanks for the suggestions.

I am still not sure whether the crater locations would be included on a military map. Once they hit, they seem to be of little importance unless located on a road or runway. I'm not opposed to including them, I would just like to hear more about this...

I'm not sure about modern warfare but especially in the world wars and in desert warfare you would scrawl in the location of an arty strike and craters as these places would often be the best cover you could get while under fire in the open. Most certain however is that the SLs will know where arty has struk and therefore where the holes will be

What are the small circles drawn on some hills (both on the North between t bridges and near the south bridge)? EDIT: Need to up my reading comprehension

Just a small sample of some screes, every single scree over a certain angle need not be mapped, the technique and cleverness of map symbols is that you simply lengthen or expand them to show a larger feature, and they simply blend in and become part of the map.

You are swaying me on the tree types though. If you can find the official marking for bamboo you win a prize!

I said... Panda Bears! If project reality goes forth into more reality then noting forestry changes will be important to pinpointing your location and following bearings.
Often while walking looking and seeing some fir trees and some birch trees, then checking the map, you can clearly see the difference, and follow the right ones

With respect to the unknowns, this is not practical. The same map is shared between both teams. Only the overlays can display team specific info.

very true.. you smart me dumb

EDIT Just had a thought. How about on urban maps to help stop some cluttering also, you could have certain small sections which have been mapped by the coalition and are friendly-ish (such as the village on basrah) Where the buildings are numbered/lettered whatever, and other "hot zones" which aren't mapped so effectively and are just a stadard urban map. you could drive in and be met with burnt out cars formed into roadblocks, destroyed briges etc. it would feel like a totally different world, and your map wont be as detailed as it was in the friendly zone. RESULT fear eek cant just zoom in and get a birds eye view (albeit blurry) of everything here.

[Clypp]

WWI trench symbols!

History Buff mapping

There has to be a good set of NATO military symbols somewhere but I have yet to find them after much searching.

[Deadfast]

Can't say anything else than that I like this

However I think you should not include the crater holes. It looks weird IMO.