Al Kufrah Oilfields: Single Use Helicopters

[DarthDisco]

Ok, I think I understand the intended "scout" role of the choppers on the map, but I don't really see why they can't be made to respawn like any other asset. If the map designer wanted the helos to be used in that fashion it stands to reason that (with very few exceptions) you're going to get shot down eventually. To me, non-respawnable choppers is something between a waste and a tease.

Its a waste because, as was mentioned, most people don't realize how to scout properly, and get shot down within seconds. It's a tease because, without respawnable assets, no one gets the opportunity to learn from their mistakes.

[Sabre_tooth_tigger]

He doesnt want you to transport troops to the front line with it. He doesnt want you to shoot enemies on the ground with it. I think its only an attack heli maybe because that has less seats

If you scout from 500alt then you will probably last the whole round, if you arent completely useless at flying. If you dont have the patience to do that then you lose the right to use it at all.

If the tanks can shoot you at 460alt then basically you arent going to last long doing anything but very basic scouting, thats it. Take it or leave it

Harsh but pretty clear to me

[Masaq]

Hovering in the littlebird at 460alt I was damaged by the tanks guns

So don't hover? Keep moving

Its a waste because, as was mentioned, most people don't realize how to scout properly, and get shot down within seconds. It's a tease because, without respawnable assets, no one gets the opportunity to learn from their mistakes.

So think of it as a particularly tricky practical exam. You either pass it with honours or you get "FAIL" stamped on the wreckage of your 'bird.

It's actually *easier* to use the 'birds in a recon role than a transport or light attack role - you're high enough up that most people won't see you and if they do, won't be able to bring their guns to bear on you before you're out of range, and you only have to land the damn tippy things every 10 minutes or so.

[Sabre_tooth_tigger]

So don't hover? Keep moving

I agree except for the fact that the littlebird in particular will not ascend without being almost completely level. That leaves little room for lateral or any movement except on 1 axis (if you want to gain altitude at all quickly)

The other scout helis are much easier to use in that respect I think.

The littlebirds lose altitude easily without any gain in speed as they do so. It makes them easy prey, they can stay mobile by making no attempt to regain the altitude they have lost (ie. nape of earth flying) or they can come to a complete stop and gain height.

The littlebird has a big dive bias in this version so altitude is easily lost and hard to regain.

This all adds up to forcing mistakes especially on this map, there is not the cover to let nape flying be effective at all. Theres one canyon on the map.




Not a criticism of anyone, just I think thats partly why these helis are dying so easily. People are making mistakes but they are very easy to make.
I dont know about the MEC scout heli so much but its stronger and probably there is less excuse there for its loss, its not nice to fly though

[unrealalex]

Again you guys keep discussing these utopian tactics that your average PR player won't know/do.
If it's a scout helicopter remove the guns.

Honestly I'm used to that map without chopper because they always crash somehow. I know you guys think that people should be smart and only good pilots should fly, but it never works that way. People make mistakes, people who aren't good pilots get the chopper before the good pilots too, even good pilots crash. And 99% of the time you get a round without helicopters.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

I personally don't even like this map. The inside of he map is pretty much a kill zone because armor owns it up and there is no place to lace a rally besides up in the outside of the map and far and away from the flags. And I mean far. Having a rally doesn't even help anyway. IMO, it should be replaced with another map.

[CAS_117]

Dear sir,
You suck.

Yes but thats beside the point.

Signed,
The people who like tank combat and not those monkeys who refuse to fight on the ground, like real men.

What if I like knife combat! And I cannot stand it when those mean people with guns come and ruin all my fun!

Its virtually the only map where tanks can actually enjoy good tank on tank combat without some joystick jockey coming along and ruining all the fun.

Getting wasted by tanks as an infantryman isn't fun either. Ejod, Qwai, Zatar and Al Kufrah are devoid of any attack choppers. Oman has two Cobras, Daqing has 1 attack chopper, and Kashan has 2 attack planes or 2 attack choppers. And that sums up the air aspect of PR.

If anything there need to be more maps focusing on tank combat, devoid of heavy air support.

Theres like 2 planes. And one map with 2 planes is not a whole lot. The AA situation is pretty much rectified as of now so its not like aircraft are invincible. The catch is supposed to be that they'll have their own air to ground weapons.

And to respond to post 1, why not just have every asset respawn once and I'm sure that map will stay in circulation.

[unrealalex]

I tried to use it as recon just now and got shot down pretty quickly. It's pretty hard to keep it at 400+ altitude, I was at 370 or so and was taken out pretty quickly.

[Sabre_tooth_tigger]

Getting taken out at 370 is unlucky or you were not moving about enough. I take it you were in the LB. Try to be aware of your radar signature, if they've seen you then you should be on defcon 1. If theres tracers flying at you, you need to take extreme evasive maneuvers, again harder in the LB because it will not gain speed when diving.

Height is just good practise, it wont stop them hitting per say anymore then face paint stops you getting shot

After a certain height it does get more unstable and harder to gain height for some reason and operating just off the false horizon is allready hard anyway.

[asianator365]

If you scout from 500alt then you will probably last the whole round, if you arent completely useless at flying. If you dont have the patience to do that then you lose the right to use it at all.

I hate to be the voice of reason here, but the truth is the graphics of BF2 suck. No matter what you do. There are no "ifs," "ands," or "buts" about it. BF2 line of sight is limited and you can't change the way the game engine works. This brings up the following problems with scouting role:
1) Do to the limited line of sight, a scout helicopter has to be within range of an enemy's weapons to spot enemies. This exposure to enemy fire must eventually lead to the helicopter's destruction: death cannot be avoided forever. I know for a fact you will not see an enemy squad moving on foot at 500 altitude in BF2.
2) The limited line of sight also forces the pilot to do one of three things to effectively spot the enemy. a)Fly low and attempt to spot them as you quickly fly over them b) Fly high and try to dive or dip the nose to spot the enemy if the pilot even sees it directly underneath them c)Attempt to spot things out from behind the almost non-existent cover on the map
3) A pilot must either manually click on the "Spotted" button while pointed directly at the enemy or somehow communicate with ground forces to engage the enemy. This makes it hard to correctly spot the enemy while dodging enemy fire, maintaining proper flight control, and communicating with ground forces. Communication with other forces on your team is difficult: At most a pilot has voice communication with 5 members of a squad and the commander. BF2 does not have a "Yell at the Entire Server" VOIP function. And I have never seen a pilot type out "Enemy tank grid square A5, heading east towards our Main Base Flag" while maintaining proper flight control and dodging enemy fire.
4) The scout helicopters in Project Reality have relatively low armor. I have seen pilots get shot out of the cockpits and the aircraft will become uncontrollable after a few shots from the mounted machine guns on just about every ground vehicle. The combination of low armor, little cover, and a complicated scouting process make the task of scouting in a scout helicopter very complicated and difficult.

In real life, a pilot would easily be able to carry out the functions of a scout helicopter. They are able to use real life cover or speed and are able to take advantage of the nearly limitless line of sight available to them. While the idea of a fully functional scout helicopter in Project Reality is one that I love, the reality is that it is too complicated for a game to fully simulate reality. In order to achieve the dream of a good scout helicopter in PR, some concessions must be made. This may mean that armor, speed, armaments or some other factor must be compromised on. Maybe in the future (I anxiously await the arrival of the Kiowa Warrior), PR will be able to more fully realize this dream.

[Zybon]

The problem with any argument that the choppers shouldn't respawn is that these same arguments can be applied to practically any asset in the game. Yet, all the other assets stay in the game. Why? Because shit happens, people leave and join games, and it wouldn't be as fun if the only asset some guy likes can never again be used in a game.

Theres no reason to make it NEVER respawn... a long respawn timer (as in Kashan) will accomplish the same goals without completely removing any possibility of someone who just joined from seeing them in action.

[Sabre_tooth_tigger]

1) Do to the limited line of sight, a scout helicopter has to be within range of an enemy's weapons to spot enemies. This exposure to enemy fire must eventually lead to the helicopter's destruction: death cannot be avoided forever. I know for a fact you will not see an enemy squad moving on foot at 500 altitude in BF2.

Fly high and try to dive or dip the nose to spot the enemy if the pilot even sees it directly underneath them

3) A pilot must either manually click on the "Spotted" button while pointed directly at the enemy or somehow communicate with ground forces to engage the enemy.

The combination of low armor, little cover, and a complicated scouting process make the task of scouting in a scout helicopter very complicated and difficult.

It is possible to last the entire round in a scout heli but you are right it is very difficult & complicated. Most of all you need patience

zybon has a better point, its not fair on the average pub player who isnt there at the start of the round but since teams squabble over who flys, its never fair anyway.


1 - The line of sight on this map is very high which is why the chopper gets killed from so far away all the time. Yes you must fly overhead and dip the nose, a co pilot to spot would help also.
Overhead is the only way because the angle of attack will be too great for the enemy to fire on you even if you are seen

3 - Ideally you should have a co pilot or use voip to inform the SL or CO of the enemy positions. Mainly the heli should be used to relay tank movements, thats what matters on this map really.

- Nobody will be able to spot enemy infantary in future anyway

Losing a vehicle is going to matter much more in future versions, either moaning will increase or people will have to learn not to treat vehicles as disposable, its a bad bf2 habit we have

[DarthDisco]

Turns out this is about to become a moot point. If you haven't read yet, 0.7 will change the spotting system and make it nearly impossible for choppers to be effective spotters.

Under the new system, persons in vehicles will be able to auto-spot only other vehicles, and will not even be able to manually place spots on the map for other sightings like enemy soldiers, rally points, firebases, etc.

Personally, I see that as a perfect bit of encouragement to make some kind of change with the Al Kufrah choppers; either remove them, or make them respawn... Then again, we don't really know if Kufrah will make it to 0.7 (it wouldn't if I had any say in the matter, long live STEEL THUNDER).

[Sabre_tooth_tigger]

lol steel thunder was great. I still have a BR of a round but it was not suited to 0.6. They wont scrap kufrah I think, I dont really love it either as I would much rather fly nape of the earth not so far up in a boring way

The spotting changes mean the oppisite to me, they reinforce that you should not be at eye level with the infantary or even really looking for them. You can spot tanks manually or use VOIP.

You can fly as a SL, Im not sure if it matters what kit you use while spotting or just that you are a SL