Remove the player locations from the map?

[.blend]

U no, with proper communication, that would be possible, but the retarded VOIP is hardcoded. But Mumble aint.
Also, there are players. retard players, and retard coms for that matter. They r propably the most annoying thing DICE hardcoded^^.

[Masaq]

Know what I'd like?

A map that showed the locations of all armoured vehicles, aircraft and squad leaders, after a delay, based upon speed.

The idea would be that over any given period, all units on the map would be *roughly* in the area indicated to the map's user, within a given radius.

For example:

Tanks move relatively slowly, so their position could be updated relatively slowly.

Also, only squad leaders would be visible on the map.



The delay would represent several elements of realism:

- The delay in communication from an individual unit, through the chain of command and back down again, to every other individual unit.

-The general faffing around and battle-confusion.

-Mistakes in navigation and positional reporting made by individual units



As a result, checking your map would enable an infantryman to know that there's a friendly tank somewhere in his area, but not exactlty where it is. (That tank he can hear on the next block over may be the friendly one, it might not...)

Likewise, the tank commander would know that there's a friendly squad tasked to operate in the same area - because he can see the Squad Leader icon on his map - but he doesn't know exactly where the SL is, and he doesn't know exactly where all his troops are.

In order to minimize friendly fire, both the tank and the infantry would have to be wary. The tank has to hold his fire on visual contacts to ensure they're hostile, and the infantry should stay close to their squad leader in order to help the tank recognise them as part of the infantry unit he's aware of.


Something like:

0.4 minute update for SLs (30s)
0.3 minute update for heavy vehicles (18s)
0.2 minute update for light vehicles (12s)
0.1 minute update for helicopters (6s)
.03 minute update for jets (2s)

With example speeds and distances as follows (I have no idea to what extent PR currently reflects these relative values):


UNIT -> SPEED Kph -> SPEED M/s -> Maximum possible distance from marker on the map
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MEC Civililan walking -> 5km/h -> 1.3m/s -> 31m
PLA Infantryman jogging -> 20km/h -> 5.5m/s -> 132m
MIL T-62 -> 40km/h -> 11.1m/s -> 199m
MEC Vodnik -> 60km/h -> 16.6m/s -> 200m
USMC Apache -> 150km/h -> 41.6m/s -> 250m
GB Eurofighter -> 500km/h -> 138.8m/s -> 277m

[Antonious_Bloc]

Bad idea.

And it would be way too hard for most people even if it did make any sense.

[OkitaMakoto]

Nice Masaq, I'd support that.

Bad idea.

And it would be way too hard for most people even if it did make any sense.

people wouldnt have to DO anything, they would just need to know that the positions that are shown are delayed and that the only infantry that shows up is SL's[and commander?]

[Onil]

In my Opinion:

- Commander can see every friendly
- SL can see other SL's and his own squad
- SM can only see his own squad

If this would be possible then i would agree if following this guidelines.

[Masaq]

Bad idea.

And it would be way too hard for most people even if it did make any sense.

Urm, going to explain why you think it's a bad idea, or should this be self-evident?

Like it or not, fog of war is a very real problem even today. Infantrymen cannot report their individual positions on a continuous basis, and as we've seen with several blue-on-blue incidents involving aircraft, even dedicated communication channels used to reduce the risk of these types of incidents (the use of Forward Air Controllers, for example) don't eliminate the problems.

Why would it be too hard? The actual computation would all take place by the game; players would see a symbol on their map (as they do currently) that, instead of moving smoothly across the map, moved in 24/18/12/6/3 second leaps; fast units updating more regularly and slow units updating slowly.

People would just have to take into account the fact that if they're running towards a friendly unit because they need covering fire or support that it may not be as close as they thought it was. Conversely, it could be much closer.

Now, I'd appreciate some serious feedback on the suggestion, so I've popped it up in a thread of its own elsewhere:


https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... delay.html

In my Opinion:

- Commander can see every friendly
- SL can see other SL's and his own squad
- SM can only see his own squad

If this would be possible then i would agree if following this guidelines.

My problem with that is that it makes it MUCH harder for squad leaders; they become basically completely blind with regards to major battlefield units - such as tanks, APCs and the location of vehicles - and then rely on the commander to transfer such information across to them.

Now, this creates an instant problem when you have a commander who is either a) without VOIP, b) basically useless or c) non-existant.

Assuming you get a commander who is existant, useful and using VOIP, you get a second problem: information overload.

I don't know about you, but I can't talk AND listen very effectively. Whenever I'm using VOIP with a squad (I squadlead more or less all the time), I seriously take against commanders who are using VOIP *continuously*.

Don't get me wrong, a commander who informs me of Important Things - new orders, enemy units spotted near me, support on the way, praise - is lovely, and I adore them and I tell them this. Sometimes it makes them uncomfortable and they ask me to stop stroking them in team chat, but usually they're ok with it

However, commanders who spend the *entire* match on VOIP make it nearly impossible for me to lead my squad. Instead of being able to listen to my squadmate's messages, I'm having to listen to a stream of burble from a chap who's several hundred metres away and often talking about other squad's activities.

Switching to "commanders see all, everybody else doesn't" just encourages that kind of chatter - and I don't think it's something that should be encouraged.

[Sadist_Cain]

I LOVE Masaq's idea.

Kinda can see it working as the friendly SL's Vehicles etc etc. would be "spotted" on the map every few seconds.

Would be great also in that right now there's no real use for my pretty green extraction smoke the pilot just choose where he's going to go based on where he sees the squad being

In my Opinion:

- Commander can see every friendly
- SL can see other SL's and his own squad
- SM can only see his own squad

If this would be possible then i would agree if following this guidelines.

That's good... as long as it has the delay aswell.

[Ragni<RangersPL>]

In my Opinion:

- Commander can see every friendly
- SL can see other SL's and his own squad
- SM can only see his own squad

If this would be possible then i would agree if following this guidelines.

This could actually work I like it

[BloodBane611]

The purpose of unit locations on the minimap is to simulate the radio channels that are available to coordinate units on the battlefield. Since BF2 has only a squad net and a SL-CO channel, there is no way of reproducing (in pub play) a true military comm net. If you reduce the ability of units to see each other then you effectively are reducing realism. I already posted on Masaq's suggestion in his thread, but for one I think any sort of reduction in what is displayed would be primarily foolish, and secondarily unrealistic.

[fludblud]

You are absolutely right. The actual battlefield technology currently exists. Check out this link to a Future Weapons episode. Apparently, it's not all that unrealistic to see the location of other soldiers on a GPS HUD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFGsmjeOYi8[/youtube]

wasnt landwarrior cancelled because soldiers were getting serious motion sickness with the one eyed HUD?

[Froggy]

No. Here is the reason why. So I'm sitting on the deck in my beautiful UH-1N. I see a request for a supply drop in the chat area, issued by a squad leader. So I look at the name, check all the squad leaders, find this certain squad leader and then I click his name, turning his dot on the map white. I can then find him and drop supplies. If the those indicators for vehicles and troops/squads/squad leaders were removed, It would REALLY make the game more difficult to play to the point of frustration. I would have to chat while flying and crash because I'm typing.

[Kruder]

If partially implemented, it might lead to an excellent experience.:

Only SL's see other SLs(only SLs ,not their troops) and vehicles,as a result grunts would have utter dependance on their SL to learn wtf is happening on the battlefield

[McBumLuv]

I'd love to see it removed for the most part. Infantry SLs should be able to see other SL positions, but that's all that would show up on the map (Realistic because of D-DACT systems being used in the USMC. Dunno about OpFor equivalents, but it'd be fine if it's simply mirrored).

Then, Armoured vehicles/Attack helicopters could be given a Bluforce tracker (easily doable if done similarly to CA's radar system). It would make visually IDing targets more useful, lone-wolfing all the more suicidal, encourage squad cohesion, and it would be way more realistic, would give you a better feel for the battlefield, and put a heavier reliance oonto good communication (Think: talking to the Commander who can see all SLs, Ground / air vehicles)

[Rudd]

I would have to play test it

[BloodyDeed]

I like the idea and i like the way you you would have to game:
talking with the commander, are there friendlies etc...
BUT it would make public unplayable because there is too less communication. And think of the players who are new to this mod and new to the maps etc...no chance to orientate thereselves.
On clan or tournament matches it would be interesting and require a new level of communication but on public its just too hard.
-> So NO, dont remove the minimap.

[Danolboy]

I don't think it should be removed entirely but I think the visibility of the map should be restricted to your immediate area. say 200m or so.

[wookimonsta]

well, you should be able to see your own location, with gps and what not. You could ask if there are any friendlies near you (Commander can see all units, or at least have a less detailed general location.)
However, you have to remember that you are sitting in front of a pc and you simply don't have the info that you would actually have if you went outside. Lots of people still don't use mumble and without 3D audio, you cant coordinate the way you can with the minimap now.

Could be interesting if the commander could see only squad leaders and combat vehicles too. Or maybe a radio kit or something, and the commander could only see that kits location. If he is alive, the commander gets updates on your location. If he is dead, it stays where it is. If you don't have one, the commander doesn't know where you are.

[GeneralNorth]

I'd say a definate yes to this. I really like the suggestion!

[Kruder]

No. Here is the reason why. So I'm sitting on the deck in my beautiful UH-1N. I see a request for a supply drop in the chat area, issued by a squad leader. So I look at the name, check all the squad leaders, find this certain squad leader and then I click his name, turning his dot on the map white. I can then find him and drop supplies. If the those indicators for vehicles and troops/squads/squad leaders were removed, It would REALLY make the game more difficult to play to the point of frustration. I would have to chat while flying and crash because I'm typing.

Well,signal smoke?