Changes to the injury/death system

Pariel · Post by **Pariel** » 2008-02-08 00:09

Just so you know guys, you both pretty much appear to be targeting each other, rather than having a useful conversation(which ended after each of your first posts, if it got that far).

Personally, I suggest sticking tot he old system; I think it's one of the few parts of the game that has never exhibited balance issues, it accurately simulates a medic's actual role (even if the portable defibrillator is silly). I think it's ridiculous to say that we (by which I mean the devs) need to come up with new equipment, animations, and a new system just to make the game more complicated, which will add little to nothing to gameplay.

gclark03 · Post by **gclark03** » 2008-02-08 00:17

Complexity != Reality.

It kills me to dig up such an ancient adage, but why fix what ain't broke?

$kelet0r · Post by **$kelet0r** » 2008-02-08 00:46

gclark03 wrote:Complexity != Reality.

It kills me to dig up such an ancient adage, but why fix what ain't broke?

By that argument BF2 isn't broken - the whole point of PRM is to push the barrier on what can be fixed given the limits available

Pariel wrote:I think it's ridiculous to say that we (by which I mean the devs) need to come up with new equipment, animations, and a new system just to make the game more complicated, which will add little to nothing to gameplay.

New systems replacing old have been implemented in every release since 0.2 - you use the word complications like an insult, I would use the word depth because I would contend that anything that makes the gameplay more realistic would only enhance the gameplay. Personally I think settling for the current rather than wanting more is 'ridiculous'

gclark03 · Post by **gclark03** » 2008-02-08 00:54

Do you complain about e-mail because it doesn't have the same 'depth' as walking your mail there yourself? Like e-mail, the defibrillator is a practical, simple device, and making it harder by having yourself triage the patient, applying a tourniquet, dragging him to a medevac helo, flying 300 miles to a medical facility, patching him up and flying all the way back in-game won't make anything more fun to play - just more complex, and even harder on the newbies.

Post by **Rudd** » 2008-02-08 01:55

gclark03 wrote:Do you complain about e-mail because it doesn't have the same 'depth' as walking your mail there yourself? Like e-mail, the defibrillator is a practical, simple device, and making it harder by having yourself triage the patient, applying a tourniquet, dragging him to a medevac helo, flying 300 miles to a medical facility, patching him up and flying all the way back in-game won't make anything more fun to play - just more complex, and even harder on the newbies.

If we had more than 64 players per server this would work fine

I'd enjoy a game with the features that you describe...but I'm a medic fanboy

Pariel · Post by **Pariel** » 2008-02-08 01:59

gclark03 wrote:Complexity != Reality.

It kills me to dig up such an ancient adage, but why fix what ain't broke?

Agreed on both counts; let me rephrase myself:

It would make the system overly complex.

If you want to spend time slogging to medical stations to get fixed up, join the military. This game is first and foremost about gaming, second about realism.

$kelet0r wrote:New systems replacing old have been implemented in every release since 0.2 - you use the word complications like an insult, I would use the word depth because I would contend that anything that makes the gameplay more realistic would only enhance the gameplay. Personally I think settling for the current rather than wanting more is 'ridiculous'

See above. Feel free to disagree with me.

But step back from your point of view for a second, and answer these questions:
-What would this require in terms of actual work to implement, and what would be the actual results on gameplay?
-Do you really think this would make the game more dynamic and interesting? I hate nothing more than walking in video games, but hey, if that's your thing, well, OK.

*EDIT* Apparently I didn't take the time to read gclark03's last post. Well, that's what you get for rushing; a whole wasted post.

gclark03 · Post by **gclark03** » 2008-02-08 03:27

It wasn't a wasted post, you made some very good points.

Remember that there's an entire panel of military advisers helping out with this mod. If there were a viable solution, it would be in place already.

BloodBane611 · Post by **BloodBane611** » 2008-02-08 04:43

Do you complain about e-mail because it doesn't have the same 'depth' as walking your mail there yourself?

lol mate this was a good one. Not quite the same, but I do agree.

Personally, I will say that I am no big fan of the current revive system. But, in its defense, it does reasonably represent what happens on the battlefield. A medic gets to you in time, you're going to be able to get back in the fight. If you're bleeding out and the medic doesn't make it to you in time, you have to be returned to a medical facility. In certain circumstances, there's nothing a medic is going to do that will bring you back. The GREAT majority of the time you are not being revived. Therefore the person who is represented by the loss of 1 ticket for your life is being medevaced, or there are several representatives from your countries government knocking on someone's door.

If you want to CREATE a new system, feel free. But the current one is as reasonable a balance of realism and gameplay as we are going to get with this engine.

Also, your idea that medics kills should be punished is just totally naive. If a medic runs out in the street to treat an insurgent, you better bet those marines/soldiers are going to put a cap in his butt, face, and several areas in between. The days where medics were safe left a long time ago.

The reason your idea doesn't fit into BF2 is not realism. It's logistics and gameplay. Very few people are going to want to run around as an unarmed class with no real advantages. Even the current armed medic class is underplayed, and with your desired nerfing they would die a burning, agonizing death. Logistically, there simply are not enough people to man enough vehicles in the right locations to transport/heal enough people.

Overall it would hurt gameplay, with little addition to realism. Instead of creating more tactical gameplay, it would simply make it more complicated.

[T]MLPatriot · Post by **[T]MLPatriot** » 2008-02-08 04:50

I'd love to see the removal of the shock paddles but that every map would have a Medical helicopter or truck along with a medical/hospital bunker. The wounded soldier would be evacuated and transported to the medical bunker and be healed. The truck could only be driven by medics. it could be a commander asset or base type bunker. this would increase teamwork. I also think that it wouldnt go against any hardcoding.

gclark03 · Post by **gclark03** » 2008-02-08 05:53

All this looks good on paper, but it's horrendously difficult to put it into practice. If it can't be done effectively on a public server full of vBF2 noobs, it shouldn't be implemented at all.

Callipso · Post by **Callipso** » 2008-02-08 06:43

Maybe at the start of the game all medics defibs start out with 0 charges and to charge the defib to 1 they would have to stand next to an ambulance, which could be made available like any other vehicle. If you could somehow put critically wounded soldiers on the ambulances gps it might work in a way where you would have 1 team of medics throughout the entire game keeping your men alive, while at the same time keeping the medic-whoring to an absolute minimum.

DrMcCleod · Post by **DrMcCleod** » 2008-02-08 10:53

How about we stick to the ORIGINAL suggestion in the thread....

ps Would be kind of cool if a US/UK medic could revive an insurgent and decrease Insurgent ticket by one more....

Pariel · Post by **Pariel** » 2008-02-08 12:22

Well, to return to the original idea...

I think it's horrible. I also think it can't be implemented, as the effects of being critically wounded are certainly hardcoded--you fall over and die. It also removes the possibility of anyone actually getting medic'ed anymore. Unless you decide to make the wounded soldier invincible while they're crawling, which seems a little ridiculous, then the enemy is just gonna pop another shot into him, and he'll be unrevivable.

As BloodBane said, feel free to create your systems and submit them to the devs.

But I see no scenario where the devs would be creating a new system in the near future, and I would be disappointed if they thought it was worth their time.

$kelet0r · Post by **$kelet0r** » 2008-02-08 14:09

gclark03 wrote:Do you complain about e-mail because it doesn't have the same 'depth' as walking your mail there yourself?

You are comparing reading email to a game??? Words fail me ... how else could I respond to that than by saying that blending your own smoothie is so much more satisfying than buying one sitting in the supermarket fridge
.

... making it harder by having yourself triage the patient, applying a tourniquet, dragging him to a medevac helo,

Up to this point I feel can and should be represented ingame. If your bleeding but alive, you apply a bandage and get back to a vehicle to heal fully (ie the metaphor for getting to a medevac and being replaced by another soldier). If you are bleeding and 'dead' well you're dead. If a medic gets to you on time to defib you and give you a bandage, you still have to get to a heli or apc to heal inside and jump out (ie the metaphor for having your life saved by a combat medic, being evacuated and replaced by another soldier).
Anything that can make 1) the player value their ingame life more while not going to the Operation Flashpoint extreme of one life only can only benefit the game and 2) having a less 'complete and utter fantasy' game mechanic for healing is very important.

People can poke holes all day long but the idea is compared to most suggestions remarkably straightforward - 1) remove magic healing bag from current medic and make him a full rifleman rather than a support class, 2) make helicopters and apcs heal when inside the vehicle, and 3) optionally create a super, dedicate medic class with minimal weaponry and whose purpose is to save tickets, heal and revive as a dedicated support class etc. The fear of change is very very strong it would seem beyond the cosmetic - adding a new gun skin will always be more acceptable than changing and experimenting with gameplay I guess.

Saying it won't work is presumptious - how would you possibly know without trial and error ingame. Saying it's too complicated, impossible to implement and bad for teamwork are simply wrong - and besides these arguments are heard every single time a suggestion is made about removing an arcade vanilla BF2 feature and usually from the people who only end up playing the mod for a few weeks before losing interest. Personally, par example, I would remove rally point spawning completely or restrict it to only being possible if a squadmate is within a small radius of it and/or having a maximum limit of 6 respawns for the whole squad available - I can only imagine the terrible gnashing of teeth and screams of derision that would bring if it was suggested ...

Maybe just maybe, the Tora-Tora-Tora mentality of players might be altered just enough that the concept of falling back and regrouping might actually be seen ingame.

DrMcCleod · Post by **DrMcCleod** » 2008-02-08 15:18

Pariel wrote:Well, to return to the original idea...

I think it's horrible. I also think it can't be implemented, as the effects of being critically wounded are certainly hardcoded--you fall over and die. It also removes the possibility of anyone actually getting medic'ed anymore. Unless you decide to make the wounded soldier invincible while they're crawling, which seems a little ridiculous, then the enemy is just gonna pop another shot into him, and he'll be unrevivable.

As BloodBane said, feel free to create your systems and submit them to the devs.

But I see no scenario where the devs would be creating a new system in the near future, and I would be disappointed if they thought it was worth their time.

Tish and piffle. It MAY be hardcoded, in which case all this is for naught, but it may also be possible.
Your other remark is just daft, are you honestly telling me that having taken a non-fatal shot you never dive to the ground behind cover?

If you get caught in the open whilst crawling to cover then thats too bad, but generally, people stay behind cover when engaging the enemy.

BloodBane611 · Post by **BloodBane611** » 2008-02-08 15:41

No, this probably isn't hardcoded. But it is many, MANY hours of animations work, assuming it can work at all. It would mean totally changing the damage system, so players would have more health, like 130%, but when they reach 30% left they would have what you described in the OP. That's assuming it can be done via python, which seems suspect to me, but then again I'm only superficially knowledgeable about the pythons.

Now, after all this work, some of which may not be possible, we end up with a system that basically means this: You get shot, you have limited mobility, and you need a medic to help you get back in the fight. What does this change again? Oh right, we get to CRAWL instead of having a smoke grenade tossed on our body and the medic comes to us.

Two thumbs down. I'd give you more, but I'm out of hands.

Post by **OkitaMakoto** » 2008-02-14 00:50

Already Suggested Suggestions Thread:
*cough*
1. Defibrilators Unrealistc/Medic/Remove [in response to OP]
2. Surgeries/Field Hospitals. [in response to ambulance etc. ideas]
*cough*

How was this not locked sooner? Locked for resuggest. The DEV's have already said that defibs are gonna stay. This idea has come up thousands of times. The medic kit is there to keep up teamwork. Also, when it says you are "critically wounded" think of it as being moderately wounded and in need of basic assistance from a field medic. Once revived [read: given a band-aid for your booboo

] you pick up your rifle and continue on with your squad.

Sure defibs on a battlefield reviving every "dead" soldier is absolutely ridiculous, but it serves a different purpose than it shows by means of the defib and animation of shocking. Its NOT shocking your guy back to life. I swear it isn't