Post 0.75 - weapon deviation didn't need to be changed

[Alex6714]

The thing is, I would like it 100% if it worked properly. I still lose 70% of the time, me still vs the pronediver.

However, the 0.75 deviation is good, much better than 0.7 and I am fine with it.

[PRC_Heavy_Z]

It is already counter-productive as it is, the accuracy seems to be closely related to the v.6, rather than v.7.

AFAIK, V.6 had no moment-based accuracy deduction or the cone of fire deviation. Which was extremely unrealistic I agree.

I think the only thing in 0.75 that's changed from 0.7 deviation asides from the G3 tweak was now you could adjust your aim without the enormous accuracy deduction. Therefore the cone of deviation still exists (try shooting a weapon on automatic in a lan game) so 0.75 is not that different from 0.7

Like Rico11b stated, v.7 is WAY more realistic than v.75. Reverting back to v.7 is not a problem, but rather the more realistic approach.

The weapons were less accurate in 0.7 most likely because moving the mouse slightly to track a target creates large amounts of deviation, so if the target keeps on moving it is almost impossible to hit it. Just like vBF2; it's not realistic.

Though the results of 0.7 deviation may seem more realistic than 0.75 to you and other TF21's. The mechanics behind 0.75 is probably more realistic than 0.7. ( I say probably because I've not seen the actual hard number, but seen the common results and read the DEV's comments regarding the changes to deviation). The 0.75's mechanics (from what the information I've collected on the forums) is different from 0.7 mechanics in that it still deduct accuracy when moving and has a deviation cone at max accuracy , but it does not have the ungodly deviation for adjusting the aim slightly. Thus speaking from the mechanics point of view, 0.75 is more realistic than 0.7, and the reason for the more realistic results (to TF21's) may be yielded due to more of an auspicious event rather than an "intentional" consequence of the 0.7 deviation system.

Does 0.75 need changes? Of course, but reverting back to 0.7 is not the answer.

And again, I hope someone or a DEV could post some numbers or where to find these number so we could back up our arguments with something substantial. Otherwise everyone (me included) is just shooting blanks and chasing after a ghost.

[ReaperMAC]

AFAIK, V.6 had no moment-based accuracy deduction or the cone of fire deviation. Which was extremely unrealistic I agree.

I think the only thing in 0.75 that's changed from 0.7 deviation asides from the G3 tweak was now you could adjust your aim without the enormous accuracy deduction. Therefore the cone of deviation still exists (try shooting a weapon on automatic in a lan game) so 0.75 is not that different from 0.7

The weapons were less accurate in 0.7 most likely because moving the mouse slightly to track a target creates large amounts of deviation, so if the target keeps on moving it is almost impossible to hit it. Just like vBF2; it's not realistic.

Testing on LAN doesn't achieve much. Believe it or not, your deviation in v.75 is based on how many people are on the server. Nor do getting headshots left and right is not realistic either. No, not critically wounded, but KIA as in, NOT revivable. Was just playing on Road the Kynong-Ni (whatever the spelling) and I seemed to have gotten headshotted ~ 4 times in a row. The map after that, Patterson was headshotted from about 400m away from a G3. Meh...

I do agree that the G3 and the marksman/sniper rifles needed adjusting, but not all the other assault rifles.

Though the results of 0.7 deviation may seem more realistic than 0.75 to you and other TF21's. The mechanics behind 0.75 is probably more realistic than 0.7. ( I say probably because I've not seen the actual hard number, but seen the common results and read the DEV's comments regarding the changes to deviation). The 0.75's mechanics (from what the information I've collected on the forums) is different from 0.7 mechanics in that it still deduct accuracy when moving and has a deviation cone at max accuracy , but it does not have the ungodly deviation for adjusting the aim slightly. Thus speaking from the mechanics point of view, 0.75 is more realistic than 0.7, and the reason for the more realistic results (to TF21's) may be yielded due to more of an auspicious event rather than an "intentional" consequence of the 0.7 deviation system.

Does 0.75 need changes? Of course, but reverting back to 0.7 is not the answer.

Several [TF21] members have served overseas and have fired weapons in combat. They are all saying the same thing, the deviation v.75 is not realistic. Not to mention myself and a couple of [TF21] members are also testers. We had tested this deviation around v.6-v.7 transition and whoever was tweaking it had it to near perfect at one point (much to the approval of Kenwayy and other combat veterans). The DEVs agreed and that was that. When a couple more builds came out, somebody had changed it again. Just like v.75, someone changed it to almost insane accuracy, that of v.6.

Similar to what you said, yes v.7 needed tweaking, but v.75 should not be the answer.

What's the point of having the suppression effect, when you still have laser accurate fire? ??:

P.S. Funny how there is no thread "praising" the new deviation.

[Wheeter]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but if suppression were to be effective the person being suppressed would have to fear for their lives or at least fear a longer waiting time than 30 seconds, respawning and fearlessness play a major part in effective suppression and people getting headshotted too often aswell as accuracy of the guns themselves...

Why not have to wait 2 minutes to rejoin a squad if you get killed by an enemy?

Or at least some other incentive for people not constantly banzai charging, which I experience in half the squads I join, the squad leader rushes directly to the flag, we all get killed and then its just a push with both sides rally points' having people respawn on them till someone suicidally rushes it.

Why not a limit of how many times players can spawn on an RP?

Having an alternate way of breaking up enemy squads, at least temporarily cutting down reinforcements through killing the players themselves would give players more of a reason to not want to die...

[DeadboyUSMC]

Just mod in an M777 and I won't care which way the deviation goes.

It is, at the moment, crazy accurate.

[wazza_ni]

OK, just a comment I wanted to make here after having read all the posts about deviation. Personally speaking, im of the impression that .75 is definately a step in the right direction. In my opinion I thought that .7 was a little too harsh when it came to settling time etc and that as someone rightly said, that "hitting a target 50m away was a little TOO random".

Now I aint dissing your clan here in any way, but did all you TF21 crew have a meeting about this and all come on here with the same agenda as to berate the current deviation issue? 5 of you guys (Halycon, Vipersghost, Wolfe, Reapermac and Rico11b) have come on here and spoken, pretty strongly - and in some cases - harshly, about the current deviation setup. This particular part of a post I thought was a bit out of order...

Of course you won't need suppression if you are using a freaking rail gun that is a one shot kill to the head every time. Yes an accurate weapon is a thing to fear, but there is no real world assault rifle (ON THE F!@$ING PLANET) that is as accurate as what is depicted in game at the moment or in .6 release. The only assault rifle that needed to be tweaked in .7 release was the G3. Some R-Dev took it upon himself to screw with something that was working ok, and now we end up with assault rifle accuracy fairly close to what it was in .6 release. Which was/is TOTALLY unrealistic.

Like i said im not having a go, but some of the posts you guys have made are a little too sensationalist. This, "I walk around a corner, a guy drops to prone and headshot me instantly" doesnt sit well with me. I play the game alot (prob too much) an im not exactly an uber player, but I reckon i could count on three fingers the number of times it has happened to me (and id say its down to my own stupidity). It certainly hasnt happened enough to warrant it being a problem.

Ill probably come off sounding like some PR fan boy here - but I couldnt give a f**k. I think the Dev's are doing a great job and the deviation issue has been addressed....for the better.

Wazza

[BloodBane611]

I just played my first real round of 0.75, and I have to say that the deviation is really back to just sub-0.6 levels. 2/3 or more of my shots were headshots. Of course if my targets had stopped moving that wouldn't have happened, but still. A firefight lasts all of three or four shots now, since at that point one or the other of you is dead.

There is definitely something to be said for the theory that gamers have been programmed to like the instant gratification, shoot where I point, CS style deviation system (or rather, lack of deviation system). How many FPS games can you say really had deviation? The most popular ones have effectively no outside influences effecting a shot, it's simply a mouse click, with no thought to any kind of realistic aiming and firing. The fact that PR draws its fan base almost entirely from people who have spent years playing games like that means that's what many people are going to want.


But, in the name of realism, there should be deviation. There are good things to be said about 0.75s deviation, one of which is the fact that you can now effectively lead a target. But minimum deviation needs to go up a good bit, settle time probably needs to go up as well. Right now the most effective strategy is what we all used in 0.6: prone, line up head, BOOM headshot. It's lame and unrealistic.

Having fired plenty of weapons in real life, I'll say that it's hard enough to fire and hit a man sized target at a known distance, on a range with no return fire, in such a way that he'll go down in just a few shots every time. In PR this is the norm.


Firstly, proning should incur a massive deviation penalty. Hitting the ground hard with a rifle in your hands isn't fun, and there's no way you're just going to slap it into your shoulder and blast away accurately within 2 seconds. If the proning animation could be slower, and keep the player from firing, that would simulate a lot better what a person does when actually going prone, as few soldiers in real life just toss themselves at the ground, doing an action roll to keep blazing at their opponent. I'm sure there are some 1337 tacticool guys who spend all day practicing their action rolls, but they're few and far between. Secondly, at no time should the deviation go as low as it is now. Right now you prone for a few moments and can headshot a guy 300 or 400 meters away with the primary rifles. That's quite ridiculous, as it's hard enough to hit center of mass on an unmoving target 400 meters away.

So, in summary:

Greater deviation at all times (greater minimum deviation)
Deviation penalty for proning, to stop prone diving and simulate how a real soldier goes prone

[DeadboyUSMC]

My problem with FPS' in general has always been aiming center mass, after a number of years in the military, I just can't ditch that habit. Normally, it WOULD drop a guy, but in a game, not so much.

I really don't know where I'm going with this post... Never mind...

[Chuffy]

Its interesting that some guys are saying firefights are now as short as they were in .6 when I've been experiencing the exact opposite. In general the amount of time I spend in one place exchanging fire with enemy troops has gone up and the other day on sunset city I actually ran out of ammo (all 8 mags) and had to duck out for a moment to refill. That has never happened to me before in PR. Of course that might not be deviation on its own but also the new suppression effects. Who knows.

A lot of things annoyed me with the .7 deviation system such as moving my mouse slightly would set off my aim as much as if I'd just been running and then had to dive for cover. But there are still problems inherent in the .7 system that remain in .75. I still get times (very rarely) when I've had my sights trained on someone for 3 or more seconds and inexplicably the round lands 2 metres to the right or left of them. Or those annoying moments when you unload at someone in CQB and you manage to miss or don't hit them enough even though you're firing at full-auto and they are ridiculously close to you.

.75 is an improvement, it has its problems, but it is leagues better than .7's.

[bosco_]

Or those annoying moments when you unload at someone in CQB and you manage to miss or don't hit them enough even though you're firing at full-auto and they are ridiculously close to you.
.

I hear you.

[Spec]

how exactly is the deviation system right now? I'd like to see a video with CROSSHAIR only to see how it really reacts. Would help the discussion. Can someone who knows a bit about modding enable the corsshair and show a few moves on a LAN maybe, so we all can see how exactly the deviation works?

Because i think we need a multiple-step deviation. When you stop moving, the first step should be reached really fast: you can aim at a man-sized target in CQB. Then, the "crosshair" gets even smaller, but it takes much time, until you are accurate enough to kill at range. And then, that should take even longer, the minimum deviation should be reached where you are very accurate - but when you move, it should be the medium accuracy again. When you start walking its the CQB-accuracy again and when you run its all lost.

Or something like this.

I know i shouldt say this without being able to code it, but i think this could solve a few problems. But maybe we already have a system like this, and i just dont notice it.

[LeadMagnet]

As another combat vet, tester and former coder for other mods all I'll say it good luck with Project Railgun as I'm pretty much decided on moving on. The first time on .75 when I saw a rifleman out shoot a sniper at 550m (as witnessed by the SOFLAM on my spotter) I knew the build was pooched.

As Deadboy already stated, it's second nature for me to shoot centre mass. Suddenly I find myself getting headshot by someone who I've just put a round or two into only to watch him drop prone and one shot me. Whatever fantasy world the coder on the weapons lives in sure has hell has lost touch with reality.

[Waaah_Wah]

Dont slam the door on your way out.....

[Psyko]

Post 0.75 the weapon deviation is back to what it was from 0.6, which is to say every single rifle is as accurate as a sniper rifle.

I can't even turn a corner without immediately getting hit from 500 meters off by a scoped rifleman. It also seems that people don't need to wait a few seconds from a full run before firing, as I've witnessed time and time again someone in a full sprint, see me, drop to one knee (or prone spam which is worse) and immediately open fire, hitting me on the first shot which is usually a head shot.
Marksman kits are now 100% accurate, and in my opinion are more accurate then sniper kits. Every shot is a guaranteed hit, and the rate of fire makes it the prime choice in long range engagements

To make this worse, each team gets five...yes FIVE marksman kits plus two additional sniper kits. That's 7 sniper kits per a team of about 30 players on average.
That means 25% of the team has a sniper kit, which is absolutely ridiculous.
Each team should get at the maximum 1 sniper kit and 2 marksman kits. In my opinion, when you have a team of 30 players or so, 1 kit of each balances it out.

Whatever was done to the accuracy and deviation of the weapons needs to be switched back to what it was pre 0.75. This is turning into vanilla again, where firefights last for all of 2 seconds.

You have little skill ingame and your bitter about it. The entire point of making the overlay powerful and the deviation back to accurate is to make people fear the bullets. Maybe YOU should go back to vBF2.

next time you play, regardless if everyone on your team or squad is running into the fray. stay behind a couple of tonnes of dirt piled EVERYWHERE providing excellent but under-used cover. then watch how effective it is when your mates die and you survive.

hell, take it a bit further, hit that deckin with a GPMG/LMG and piss out rounds and see how effective it is. Everything you need to stay alive and win the game is allready there. but nobody uses it. its your own fault you got pwned.

What do i know, im just a noob.

[Spec]

PR is a beta.

I'm sure the devs will keep working on it. Let them respond to this before you repeat everything again and get the thread locked.

[PRC_Heavy_Z]

Psykogundam, the TF21 clan is quiet arguably one of the best PR clans and they know how to play... calm down.

ReaperMC, glad we finally agree on that neither 0.7 or 0.75 were perfect and both needed tweaking.

So how do you or other TF21 folks feel the deviation should be? (please don't just say something vague such as "it should be like 0.7", name specifics)

I personally think that 0.8 deviation should be:

*Deviation does not decrease while the weapon is fired, this will discourage drop n' shoot or shooting without waiting to steady the weapon

*The cone of deviation should have a diameter of the height of a soldier at 300~400m (depending on weapons)

*The decrease of deviation should be exponential or logarithmic so the decrease is rapid initially but slows down as the weapon gets more accurate, thus reflecting the longer time needed to aim at a distant target.

*There should not be enormous accuracy punishment for adjusting the aim or tracking a target.

[Wolfe]

So how do you or other TF21 folks feel the deviation should be? (name specifics)

When the term "deviation" is used, we should be clear that word includes three different types of deviation: recoil, cone of fire, and settle time. The combination of these drastically changes gameplay including reaction times, prone diving, etc.

1. Type: Recoil
   Description: Level of cursor movement after a weapon is fired.
   This setting seems just right. If any tweaks are necessary, they are minimal. In .7, there is no question that the G3 recoil was insanely high, making the G3 ineffective at all ranges. In .75 the recoil was toned down and I think everyone is happy with the recoil of most weapons.
2. Type: Cone of Fire
   Description: The minimum and maximum area (or "cone") that bullets will deviate from the gun barrel based on relative movement.
   
   Currently, both the minimum and maximum cones are too tight. This makes it extremely easy to hit whatever is on your cursor, especially at long ranges. It also makes it extremely easy to prone dive, since the maximum cone of fire while laying prone is pretty narrow. Many people like this because it means they can kill their enemy in 1-3 hits at 100-200 or prine dive shoot to victory, but in the real world, this just doesn't happen.
   
   This is the area of greatest debate. People think that assault rifles should behave like sniper rifles just because they have a relatively long barrel, a scope, and they see videos of the firing range showing center-mass hits at 100+ meters.
   
   In reality, weapons never perform in combat as well as they do in controlled environments. A scope doesn't make a weapon more accurate, and videos of 100+ meter accurate shooting only exists when combat factors are removed. So sure, you might be able to nail a few center-mass shots on the firing range with a perfectly clean M16 on level ground, with no wind, no adrenalin in your veins, taking 10-20 seconds to get your stance right, breath, and feel comfortable with your shot against a target that isn't moving or firing back... yeah sure, then it's relatively accurate, but it just doesn't apply to combat, nor in a combat game with reality as its guide.
   
   As it has been stated, some people don't want to be bothered with real-world factors such as these and this is what causes the secondary debate, "then why are you playing a mod titled project reality?" Reality doesn't mean it has to be ultra-realistic or like a super detailed combat sim. However we do expect some degree of realism based on common, everyday, combat-related factors that dramatically affect the accuracy of a weapon, even when you're lying prone in the dirt.
   
   Recommendation? Increase the both the minimum and maximum cone of fire for all stances.
   
   By increasing the maximum cone of fire, going prone then instantly firing should cause many of your bullets to hit the dirt or fly wildly in the air, much like it would if you ran with an M16 and belly flopped. You'd be lucky to pull the trigger, let alone kill your target instantly.
   
   By increasing the minimum cone of fire, laying still and firing single shots doesn't guarantee a hit. Version .7 was much better this way because it helped to reinforce suppressive fire and pinning down the enemy. Personally, I find it much more fun to be suppressed than to get instantly wounded/killed. If firefights lasted longer, the game would be much more interesting and realistic.
3. Type: Settle Time
   Description: The amount of time it takes for the maximum cone of fire to become the minimum cone of fire.
   The current settle time is about 1-2 seconds. All this does is allow players to run full speed, stop, and accurately fire. Some people enjoy this because it allows them to kill more efficienly, but it's just not based in any kind of reality.
   
   Increasing the settle time helps to simulate momentum and the realistic time it takes to stop moving, draw your weapon, acquire your target, aim, and fire. By condensing this into 1-2 seconds, it negates most real-world movements and makes aiming and firing a simple movement of the mouse. Again, I hardly find this challenging or "skillful". It's boring and turns the game into a run'n gun snipe fest.

----------------------

Anway, I don't know how else to say it. If people don't get it by now, well... what else can I say than I look forward to the day when my squad encounters a hostile force and instead of the first 1-2 guys being instantly picked off and the remaining being nade spammed, to have our backs to the wall, bullets wizzing past, and wondering how the fuck we're going to get out of this one. It would be much more intense, much more cover/move tactics involved, and much more time actually engaging in firefights instead of spinning around the corner, and popping 1-2 bullets at that guy 100 meters away and ending the encounter.

For those who disagree, I challenge them to challenge themselves beyond picking off infantry with 1-3 shots at a distance, nade spamming when they're close, and prone spamming when rushed. The game could be SO much better than this and I thought we were moving that direction in .7. To me, picking off guys so easily at a distance is hardly fun, challenging or skillful, unless my ego needs to see a kill count and feel happy with dominating my opponent so easily. I'd rather engage in actual real-world combat instead of this carnival run'n gun shooting gallery.

Accurate weapons = sniping, insta-prone, easy mode.
Realistic weapons = cover fire, prolonged firefights, more complicated tactics, hard mode.

Which do you prefer for a mod based in reality?

[Waaah_Wah]

If you want supression to actually work ppl would have to think "If i dont find cover now i'll die" when being shot at. In 0.7, the only times i got supressed was when someone with a LMG shot at me. If someone with an assault rifle was shooting at me i wouldnt even bother to go for cover since i knew that he was probably gonna miss me anyway coz of deviation.

Firefights in 0.7 were often boring as hell. You sat behind a hill and fired shots at a guy on the other hill till one of you got lucky and got a headshot. Sure firefights lasted a while (and they still do), but where is the fun in sitting and clicking your left mouse button for 50 times untill you actually manage to hit the guy (and thats by pure luck).

[ReaperMAC]

If you want supression to actually work ppl would have to think "If i dont find cover now i'll die" when being shot at. In 0.7, the only times i got supressed was when someone with a LMG shot at me. If someone with an assault rifle was shooting at me i wouldnt even bother to go for cover since i knew that he was probably gonna miss me anyway coz of deviation.

Suppression effects right now works because it gives people an incentive to take cover. It makes firefights longer (or should anyways). But the deviation right now allows you to return accurate fire back. (In other terms, make firefights shorter). Also, people can now (again) prone-dive and headshot you within 1-2 seconds.

Firefights in 0.7 were often boring as hell. You sat behind a hill and fired shots at a guy on the other hill till one of you got lucky and got a headshot. Sure firefights lasted a while (and they still do), but where is the fun in sitting and clicking your left mouse button for 50 times untill you actually manage to hit the guy (and thats by pure luck).

I disagree entirely. Firefights were intense and prolonging. It took more than just 3-4 bullets to end a firefight. You had to use tactics to win the day, rather than point and click. It also took away the instant prone-diving headshot issue. I rarely had to sit on a hill and "click" until they died, which I can see would be a problem if you think and play that way.