Different Sized "Area Attacks"

[[T]Terranova7]

Are they putting amputees with missing legs on artillery teams these days? 4 men = 8 boots, for future reference.

Besides, who said an entire squad would be dedicated to spotting? Any SOFLAM laser signal should register, regardless of squad.

As for your multiple mortars argument, I need to know the range limitations of a modern mortar to give an acceptable response. I was thinking that each would have a range of, say, 1km or 500m, as a defensive feature of bunkers and an offensive feature of firebases. With 1 mortar per firebase, the impact on the amount of grunts would be minimal, and give those idiots waiting for aircraft/tanks something to do as an alternative.

Sorry for misunderstanding your analogy of boots.

Regardless, as for the spotting part, sure anyone with a SOFLAM could spot (Assuming the artillery system is based off that, though I don't think common artillery shells are guided in by a laser now). But the thing is though trying to coordinate that with anyone outside your squad is usually difficult. Try providing 500lb JDAM strikes with fixed wing aircraft with no spotter in your own squad. It's usually frustrating trying to get it all to coordinate through text alone. So ideally, you usually want and preferably should have a dedicated spotter in your squad. I think the same would hold true to artillery.

As for the range, (In terms of U.S mortars) I believe the M22460mm has a range of around 2000 meters, and the M252 81mm up to around 5675 meters. Though I'm not sure how range will influence your response.

What I'm saying is that a single mortar doesn't provide the desirable effect of artillery use. Not that I'm saying I want some overkill barrage, but at a bare minimum you'd like to have about 2 to 3 shells coming down within 5 seconds of each other if you want to be able to moderately suppress or neutralize the targets. One shell isn't going to help much less it's against a still target like a bunker or firebase.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

Are they putting amputees with missing legs on artillery teams these days? 4 men = 8 boots, for future reference.

Besides, who said an entire squad would be dedicated to spotting? Any SOFLAM laser signal should register, regardless of squad.

As for your multiple mortars argument, I need to know the range limitations of a modern mortar to give an acceptable response. I was thinking that each would have a range of, say, 1km or 500m, as a defensive feature of bunkers and an offensive feature of firebases. With 1 mortar per firebase, the impact on the amount of grunts would be minimal, and give those idiots waiting for aircraft/tanks something to do as an alternative.

There is already a Light Machinegun in the works for the Bunkers and Firebases for defense, so nothing else is needed. And I agree with Terranova, more support kits are not needed. How many people play medic these days? Not many. Every squad needs a Light AT, Support, Officer, maybe marksman, etc. We need engineers to build, mine, and C4. Someone's gotta take a HAT. Who has to drive the vehicles? Crewman and pilots. That leaves next to no one to man mortars and most people would exchange their medic kit or support kit in return for manning a mortar, which is purely about kills and not about teamwork.


And you cannot compare building firebases/bunkers to manning mortars. Once the firebases are built, everyone goes off to fight. With mortars, you have people hanging back and overstaying their welcome in return for a few kills, taking people away from the fight. Well, you could argue that they could be used for "defendign", but if the mortars are going to be next to a firebase/bunker, then I am going to say right back that they would easily give away the position of the firebase/bunker. This would be huge on maps where the CO or SLs try to hide the firebases in the woods or in an area and some idiot mortar spams the enemy, letting them know where the firebase is exactly. Not a good idea.

PS: I believe when people say "we need more boots on the ground", they mean 1 boot is the equvalent to 1 person, not 1 person is the equvalent to 2 boots.

[gclark03]

The smoke plume already gives the position, further influenced by the fact that the average pubber isn't even smart enough to conceal the base's position. If the CO or squad leaders want stealth and know that they're working with an undisciplined team, all they have to do is avoid setting the mortar.

There's no need to deny the salient need of small-scale artillery so people will be inclined to play medic. In an infantry squad, some fool who avoids his squad to use the mortar would have absolutely no reason to play medic otherwise. There are few medics in PR anyway, and the mortars, even if they might be a distraction in very specific cases, do help the team in slightly competent hands. (Really, once you learn it, you can't screw up the zeroing system, if you have a decent target.)

As to Terranova's arguing that one mortar isn't enough, range means everything. If mortars were very short-ranged, they could be limited to a small killzone around the Forward Outpost (FO from now on) they are located near. Now that I know each mortar can cover either half or all of Kashan/Qinling (depending on which one would be chosen), even this artillery strength argument falls apart. If the team absolutely needs the fire support, mortars could be built at as many as all four FOs, but this would, admittedly, take too many from the fight. In this case, the CO/SL is the limiting factor; players can't use mortars that don't exist, and there is no requirement to place them with every FO.

It all comes down to responsible leadership, not potential distractions from playing the Medic class. The difficulty of using mortars without a spotter or without training could drive the uncooperative smacktard back to his Scoped Rifleman kit anyway.

(I didn't mean to derail your thread, RustyBandSaw. If this sparks too much more discussion, I'll splinter it into its own thread, so that this one can return to discussion of different sizes of area attacks.)

[Psyko]

I dont think its a good idea to reduce the countdown timer. It would nerf everything. as it stands, the JDAM takes just longer than any infantry would expect. I dont know how to explain it better than this. Infantry arnt totally afraid to approach a target for fear of a JDAM, they procede with caution and hardly ever consider the possibility of being JDAMed. This way is the best way. If the timer is reduced then the issue will be too talked about in-game. We want people to take the chances and move into areas where the only tactical thoughts should be, best movement, best attack method, watch out for enemys. Do we really want another thought process "Listen out for the regularly dropped 500lb bomb"

I just think it would mess up the current game dynamics. and we have a couple of important changes coming in 0.8 anyways. so reducing the timer would be a total overhawl.

[[T]Terranova7]

I dont think its a good idea to reduce the countdown timer. It would nerf everything. as it stands, the JDAM takes just longer than any infantry would expect. I dont know how to explain it better than this. Infantry arnt totally afraid to approach a target for fear of a JDAM, they procede with caution and hardly ever consider the possibility of being JDAMed. This way is the best way. If the timer is reduced then the issue will be too talked about in-game. We want people to take the chances and move into areas where the only tactical thoughts should be, best movement, best attack method, watch out for enemys. Do we really want another thought process "Listen out for the regularly dropped 500lb bomb"

I just think it would mess up the current game dynamics. and we have a couple of important changes coming in 0.8 anyways. so reducing the timer would be a total overhawl.

I disagree. I'm not sure what exactly you guys got cooking up in 0.8, but I know the current JDAM might as well be removed from the game. It's a novelty weapon in it's current form. And after playing PR since the JDAM was added ingame, I've only hit by it once. Every other time it usually misses, doesn't penetrate through hard cover or just flat out drops too late.

I think in many ways... the threat of a JDAM should in fact influence a squad's next movement. When a squad is capping a flag, they should all be hiding under some cover. When they're about to attack a flag, they should make sure they're quick about it. I think it would all add a greater state of suspense for all players, as opposed to the predictable pattern of capping a flag and looking for the closest enemy rally point or firebase.

And it's like I said, even at 20 minutes you can expect a 5, 10 even 15 minute or more lag before anyone really needs the JDAM. I remember back when the old vbf2 artillery was still in PR, even being ready almost every 30 seconds or so, the darn thing was on average called in about every 3 to 5 minutes, sometimes longer because players still thought the CO could just point & click on the map.

[Waaah_Wah]

There is already a Light Machinegun in the works for the Bunkers and Firebases for defense, so nothing else is needed.

Those are .50 cal machineguns. Not exactly "light"

That leaves next to no one to man mortars and most people would exchange their medic kit or support kit in return for manning a mortar, which is purely about kills and not about teamwork.

Im so sick and tired of hearing that. Kills and teamwork DO go hand it hand. You know, the same thing can be said about tanks, coz people drop their medic and support kits to man a tank. Isnt that also all about kills?

[SGT.JOKER]

Terranova7;709741']I don't thinks it's needed considering the most of the current jets drop the 500lb bombs.

In all seriousness I think the current JDAM timer needs a serious reduction. Truth is... it's not that much of a groundbreaking weapon. You're not going to have many opportunities where half a dozen active tanks are all cramped up in one spot, and the fact that anything not destructible provides guaranteed protection (Just look around for that screenshot of the JDAM dropping on the Estate in Qwai River) just adds to the list of problems.

I'd bring the 2000lb JDAM timer down to 10 to 20 minutes. Or... I'd make a global limit as to how many are available per game (Perhaps 4) that could possibly be used every 5 minutes or so.

His idea sounds good to me for future JDAM's

[00SoldierofFortune00]

Those are .50 cal machineguns. Not exactly "light"

Yea my bad, you know what I meant.

Im so sick and tired of hearing that. Kills and teamwork DO go hand it hand. You know, the same thing can be said about tanks, coz people drop their medic and support kits to man a tank. Isnt that also all about kills?

Wrong.

There are plenty of times when armor sits and camps in a position, gets a bunch of kills, but the team does not end up winning. Why? Because they either did not take enough ground and they were bleed out by the other team. Tanks are about supporting the infantry. Yes, their main purpose is to kill just like everyone else, but if they are not supporting the infantry and purely killing from a far, then the other team could easily take their control point and then push that team with the tank to one of their back control points.

How many times have you seen a tank camp near the western village on Basrah and the Brits still lose? Plenty. In insurgency, kills mean jack which is why the British lose so much on that map because they are too focused on killing and not enough on taking ground.


Do kills matter? Of course, but if some random guy is sitting back in the corner and shooting mortars off, he is not going to have an impact on gameplay with his 3 or 4 kills like a tank would who is 20 feet away from the advancing infantry supporting them. Wow, he kills 4 enemies. Well, those 4 enemies are going to come back, move away, kill the advancing infantry from the mortars team, then go about their business pushing forward and killing more enemies with their small arms and grenades.
Any team that is not advancing or try to get the better firing positions or taking flags and trying to get a bleed going will get beat by the other team easily if they are capping their flags and moving closer to their main.

[Waaah_Wah]

Ah... So you can support infantry with tanks, but not with mortars? WTF?

[[T]Terranova7]

Ah... So you can support infantry with tanks, but not with mortars? WTF?

I think a better way of putting it would be that tanks can provide support up close. Where artillery can be considered an indirect fire weapon, a tank can be considered more of a direct fire weapon.

Nothing, and I mean nothing stands up to an assault by an infantry squad or two supported by heavy armor. You can almost look at a tank as an infantryman with a whole lot of armor...

A guy with a mortar out back somewhere doesn't do anything but cause a lot of noise and annoying suppression effects. He also puts the infantry squad attempting to defend or cap a flag at a greater risk of falling victim to friendly fire (teamkills) because in most cases the mortar gunner won't see what he's firing at.

Unless you're playing in an extremely organized environment, player controlled mortars might cause more problems then they're worth. At best, the mortar gunner & spotter might find the most success by spawncamping... be it the enemies main base, firebase, bunker, rally point etc. Though because everything on the battlefield generally remains static, it would become unfair as the moment the game starts players will have memorized the coordinates, angle, range etc. needed to fire on an objective.

[gclark03]

Could you please take the mortar discussion to the mortar thread? I feel bad about taking BandSaw's topic so far off the mark - it's about additional types of airstrikes, not player-controlled artillery. I expected my idea to get shot down quickly, not blossom into full debate; now that it's expanded so much, it's only harming this thread.

That said, the Mortars: Reloaded thread is waiting for any future discussion on player-controlled mortars.

[00SoldierofFortune00]

Ah... So you can support infantry with tanks, but not with mortars? WTF?

You can't magically pick up a firebase along with the mortars and builders and then just move them to another spot on the front. It takes time to get those things up and by the time they are, the battle could of moved across the map already. And like I said, do you want a tard sitting at your firebase that is supposed to be hidden out in the woods on Bi Ming spamming mortars and letting everyone know where it is? I know I wouldn't.

Can't compare the two. Tanks are highly mobile. Mortars are not.

Terranova7;711428']I think a better way of putting it would be that tanks can provide support up close. Where artillery can be considered an indirect fire weapon, a tank can be considered more of a direct fire weapon.

Nothing, and I mean nothing stands up to an assault by an infantry squad or two supported by heavy armor. You can almost look at a tank as an infantryman with a whole lot of armor...

A guy with a mortar out back somewhere doesn't do anything but cause a lot of noise and annoying suppression effects. He also puts the infantry squad attempting to defend or cap a flag at a greater risk of falling victim to friendly fire (teamkills) because in most cases the mortar gunner won't see what he's firing at.

Unless you're playing in an extremely organized environment, player controlled mortars might cause more problems then they're worth. At best, the mortar gunner & spotter might find the most success by spawncamping... be it the enemies main base, firebase, bunker, rally point etc. Though because everything on the battlefield generally remains static, it would become unfair as the moment the game starts players will have memorized the coordinates, angle, range etc. needed to fire on an objective.

^^^^^^This

We pretty much already have mortars ingame with the grenade launcher, so if you want a mortar, just get a GL and sit next to a supply source.

[RustyBandSaw]

How did this thread about Area Attacks turn into one about Mortars and Tanks?

[Spec]

About area attacks: Make the central dust lethal and add more dust under the ground. That means, if you hit a static building and there is someone inside, he would not die from the explosion itself, but from the lethal dust. (Smoke goes through buildings, smoke with damage added to it would kill people on the other side of a wall. Not the perfect solution, but something.)

[ZaZZo]

I'd say that we need 500lb. JDAMs ready every 15 minutes on maps that don't feature jets.

Right now, the JDAM is used for the lulz when you're at the enemy main base, or just on some random infantry squad you run into.

So, more strikes but smaller strikes.