AT Class under powered!

Pence · Post by **Pence** » 2006-04-11 21:34

~WPN~ Buggies wrote: What happens when the AT rounds are expended?

He gets a resupply.

~WPN~BjornLeorhals · Post by **~WPN~BjornLeorhals** » 2006-04-11 22:22

I do not think this pertains to the post I made but, I am a United States Marine, Explsoive Ordnance Disposal Technician (MOS 2336). Before I moved into EOD I was with a Counter Battery Radar. I work w/ all different types of units (including 0351's). I was there for most of the buildup and the push to take over and occupation Bagdad. I am not an Assaultman and I have not read their TO/TE's but I do know that every time I have worked in direct support of them, responded to them seen them, they all had rifles (everyone in the Company form the Company Commander to the PVT strait out of SOI. I am not saying what other military units thought the US and the world use, only what the Marines use. If this game is based on the Marine Corps and the point of PRMM is to make BF2 a little more realistic then give the AT guys a rifle. If you are dead set aginst it then don't. However quit saying that "they don't have one because that wouldn't be realistic".

I enjoy playing PRMM and I will continue to do so even if the AT guy never get's his rifle. I am only trying to help clear up an oversight.

Eddie Baker · Post by **Eddie Baker** » 2006-04-11 22:25

Fair enough. Welcome aboard.

Another reason we say its realistic is that the info we used was confirmed by three other Marines, and we do check for bona fides.

EOD, huh? Yikes. Still got all your fingers?

~WPN~BjornLeorhals · Post by **~WPN~BjornLeorhals** » 2006-04-12 08:13

Yeah, all 7 of them, but the only 2 I need are the ones I type w/.

I do not disagree w/ what all the pubs say. I am only saying that if you always go off what the books say you will have a really unrealistic game. I am sure there are many vet out there from Vietnam that will tell you that even though their TO weapon was a pistol and they carried a rifle, and I am willing to bet that the pubs were never updated. Like I said in the previous post if you are going to keep it this way then you can do that (because it's your MOD) and I can either shut up and be happy w/ what I get or make my own mod (that will never happen). I will however in a last ditch effort to get the AT guy the rifle he deserves is tomarrow I will call the local grunts and poll them and post the results.

WPN Shotgun · Post by **WPN Shotgun** » 2006-04-12 08:34

Good Man Bjorn.......I carried the M-16 one mission and never ever carried another, I used a cut off Ithica 12 ga. with colt 45 serial stamp 1913, thus the ninckname "Shotgun" was born......Nam 73 Mission to locate and assist

Pence · Post by **Pence** » 2006-04-12 11:21

WPN Shotgun wrote:I used a cut off

You mean Sawn-off?
You find that kind of gun manipulation on films (A London icon is a sawn-off shotgun with a wooden stock). But how did you practicly destroy a weapon without being booted by the MP men?

WPN Shotgun · Post by **WPN Shotgun** » 2006-04-12 19:31

I helped the SHotgun, should've seen what I did to the M-16....little pieces....and yes it was cut off, with a hacksaw and routed a bit with a rattail file...33 yrs ago the Military and the mission were different.....A Lt. put a single .45 bullet in my pocket while gearing up to go on a mission, and I asked What he was doing....he stopped ...shook my hand, looked me straight into the eyes and said..." You don't understand Son, we're not supposed to be here"......the single bullet is for the carrier to commit suicde.......it was cut off shotgun

LorienvArden · Post by **LorienvArden** » 2006-04-13 19:45

Top _Cat the great wrote: Another 2 ideas are:
A single rocket can be carried by a soldier, wihile not droping his main rifle.
But it would take 4 shots to destroy a MTB. THis is a perfct number beucase a small squad (4) of men with mabey 2/3 rockets would not be able to take one out but a larger one with more single rocket carring men OR the new class i suggest below would have no probs atall.

Could mantian a class that carries 2/3 and no rifle. Dont think in reall life you can carry 3 beucase most of the rockets are diposable tubes and it would be very bulky.
However this could be improve if a non disposable launcher was found (mabey the javlin) and 1 man carried the launcher and a single shot while a 2nd man carried his own rifle and 2 rounds OR no rifle and 3 rounds! THis would take 2 shots to disable a MBT.

I admit - only read first page, so plz. excuse any repetitions.. just felt the need to answer on that out of first hand experience.

Beeing an assistant RPG-trooper for 8 month of my life I can agree, nobody would really wan't to carry any RPG-launcher, rifle and RPG-rounds with him for longer then ten minutes. It is possible though.

My experiences are limited to the swedish 'Carl-gustav' aka PAR66. It weighs 15kg unloaded (as far as I remember- damn heavy anyway.). The actual gunner(PAR1) carrys the PAR66, unloaded, an STG77 with 150 rounds and additional gear. The Assistant carrys 4 rounds, which of only two are Anti-armor , as well as the STG77 and the radio if he doubles as communicator.

With full loadout- the PAR2 looks more like a suicide bomber then a soldier because he is forced to carry two of the grenades strapped to his breast (back is occupied by the radio) and moves like a drunk from the weight.

I would say RPG +2 grenades and submachine gun(HKMP5K or PDW? ) is very close to reality.

Also, adding additional grenades to the AT class would be a real boon. Anti- infantry rounds or smokescreens are quite fun...

~WPN~BjornLeorhals · Post by **~WPN~BjornLeorhals** » 2006-04-13 21:01

I spoke to the Section Leader, of Assault Section, Weapons Platoon, Echo Company, 2nd Battalion 3rd Marines yesterday and he said...

It is in their SOP that no one leave the wire w/o a long rifle (M16A4), and most of them carry pistols (M9) also. The 0351's might trade in the SMAW for AT-4s (because the AT-4 is made to penetrate thicker armour through the use of a shaped charge, where as the SMAW is just a big High explosive round), or even (depending on the mission) leave all the Anti Armour capabilities at home, but they will ALWAYS have a rifle.

The gunners carry the SMAW lancher and one rocket, where the Team Leader carries 2 rockets.

On the flip side,

The 0352s (TOW gunners) rarley carry rifles, but they are vehicle mounted so this dosn't really pertain but I thought I would throw it out their. The TOW can be fired in multiple different configurations (including tripod mounted) but they (almost) never do that because of the weight.

Eddie Baker · Post by **Eddie Baker** » 2006-04-14 02:29

~WPN~BjornLeorhals wrote:It is in their SOP that no one leave the wire w/o a long rifle (M16A4), and most of them carry pistols (M9) also. The 0351's might trade in the SMAW for AT-4s (because the AT-4 is made to penetrate thicker armour through the use of a shaped charge, where as the SMAW is just a big High explosive round), or even (depending on the mission) leave all the Anti Armour capabilities at home, but they will ALWAYS have a rifle.

The gunners carry the SMAW lancher and one rocket, where the Team Leader carries 2 rockets.

Ah, so it varies by unit SOP. Will note that the next time the issue comes up on the forums. I still am inclined to go with the TO&E listed in the TM because it encourages players to stay with teammates, but perhaps it could vary by map.

Re: the AT-4, all of my sources for the SMAW list it as having a shaped-charge HEAA round, also. Are they in short supply or just not often used in Iraq / Afghanistan? I ask because one of the things we want to do is have different selectable round types for the SMAW, RPG and other multi-purpose recoilless weapons that we implement. That would enhance the anti-tank/assaultman's capability against infantry when the armor threat is non-existant.

~WPN~BjornLeorhals wrote:The 0352s (TOW gunners) rarley carry rifles, but they are vehicle mounted so this dosn't really pertain but I thought I would throw it out their. The TOW can be fired in multiple different configurations (including tripod mounted) but they (almost) never do that because of the weight.

Really? It seems like it would be the opposite. I mean, the TOW gunners can carry their rifles in the HMMWV or have them slung while using the launcher in the mounted position, since they don't have to carry that beast, except when they dismount it to the tripod.

Cerberus · Post by **Cerberus** » 2006-04-14 02:33

^I love it when RPG's are used against infantry (in games). Adds alot of intensity to the battle!

~WPN~ Buggies · Post by **~WPN~ Buggies** » 2006-04-14 04:22

Well i'll say this...

We can debate this issue forever... literally! At some point you got to give on reality and go for playability. As it is now... the AT class stinks. For gameplay... once you destroy that armor... what good does the AT class do? Nothing! Your only mission now is to run around the map a useless load taking up server space.

For playability, give the AT class a shoulder fired weapon. Help make the AT class an effective fighting unit against armor... but give it atleast some sort of chance against infantry.

TII · Post by **TII** » 2006-04-14 04:53

I outgunned a USMC assault guy with my pistol today.

~WPN~BjornLeorhals · Post by **~WPN~BjornLeorhals** » 2006-04-14 05:56

I will not give you a definite answer because as soon as I do someone will pull some prototype BS out of somewhere and make me look like an ***.

However I am sticking to what I said earlier...

An AT-4 uses a shaped charge to penetrate armour.

The only SMAW I know of in use today is just an HE round. (I will check on others on Monday)

A LAW (what you might have been thinking of) uses a shaped charge.

There are many reasons that people could choose to carry one of these vice the others and I will not get into it because that is just a little too close to giving away TTPs, and no game is worth that.

Also that beast (the rifle that we are all talking about) is about 8 lbs. and the ammo isn't that heavy, and you would be suprised what you could carry when it may save your life.

And to finish it off I have no idea why 51s carry rifles and 52s don't all I was saying was that 51s cary rifles. You have been told, shown, proven that this is the "reality" of the situation. Like Buggies said it will make the game more enjoyable, and a little more realistic. If you are so insistent that this be as close reality give all the guys (other than the US team) crappy weapons, no armour, absolutley no aircraft, and 1/2 the ammo you think they should have. Decrease the time for the US for artillery strikes, and make the game completley uneven in the US favor, and whenever the UK team get's up do the same for them so the US and UK will be the superpowers and is sucks to be on the other team so they may either join us or quit playing. That would be realistic.

Also something that I just realized. If you are so incistent that the AT guy gets no gun because it would be unrealistic, git rid of the rifle on the medic also.

Post by **Katarn** » 2006-04-14 06:36

Real AT guys in the European forces use P90's & Mp7's. I have no idea what an American AT would use. Probably an m4 carbine.

Pence · Post by **Pence** » 2006-04-14 09:09

'[R-DEV wrote:Katarn']Real AT guys in the European forces use P90's & Mp7's. I have no idea what an American AT would use. Probably an m4 carbine.

Seriously? I think they carry normal rifles or carbines.

MP7's are only used by vehical crew members (If that). I think Helicopter pilots get a PDW and the MP7 is proberly that weapon.

LorienvArden · Post by **LorienvArden** » 2006-04-14 09:10

As I said - us Austrians use the STG77 as regular 'sidearm'.

Reduce rifle ammo on AT kits and slow them down a bit to balance them against assault, but give them the Rifle/SMG they deserve !

I wouldn't go on a mission with only a Pistol (also because I just sucked at Pistol-drill)...

the.ultimate.maverick · Post by **the.ultimate.maverick** » 2006-04-14 09:14

I think the point has been made here and elsewhere that the weapons troops use vary massively not only across armies but across regiments. So I would suggest picking just an average m16 rifle/AK101 and giving to the AT in a similar way to a medic.

-Maverick

Eddie Baker · Post by **Eddie Baker** » 2006-04-14 09:50

~WPN~BjornLeorhals wrote:Also that beast (the rifle that we are all talking about) is about 8 lbs. and the ammo isn't that heavy, and you would be suprised what you could carry when it may save your life.

When I said "beast" I meant the M220 TOW launcher, not the M16s; I know they're pretty light and the mags weigh about a pound each.

Deuce6 · Post by **Deuce6** » 2006-04-14 14:48

The Army's response to the SMAW. Check it out, maybe you'll change your minds now.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... d/m141.htm

I carried that along with my M-4/M203, 11 magazines (330 rounds of ammo), 14 40mm grenades, food and water to last 2 days, hand grenades, and two claymores. And some stuff to keep warm. And I was still able to run.

AT Class under powered!

Strait form the horses mouth