Why do you think civies are killed?

[alvina]

First time I ever shot a civi was because he looked like an insurgent. Nowdays I just shoot them, I dont give a **** about the -score or spawn delay.

[Solid Knight]

Saobh;833240']I believe your missing the point completely. And arguing for argument sake.
As you very well know that we can't have 30-60 npc "innocent" civies going around to make conditions more realistic.

Civilians in Pr are supposed to represent the difficulty for our troops to distinguish full blown insurgents from simple civilians. And considering that if an indeed innocent civilian is killed the rest of the otherwise "neutral" population will get angry against those they see as outsiders.


You are frre to have fun and play a real "innocent" civi in PR, but as in real life both the US/Brits and the insurgents will probably cut you down very quickly. The 1st because in their eyes there is a good chance you're going to try to blow them up. The second because you are deemed a traitor.

As for civies killing civies, that does indeed happen but they also get punished usually vengeance killings.

More on-topic:
Before 0.8 I would pay more attention to my targets to avoid killing civies. But right now its better to gun them down to stop them from bringing intel and helping their side as the cost for me and my team are pretty moot.

So I stay by my 1st vote on this: "Penalties aren't severe enough to curb shooting civies"
Maybe bringing down the spawn time for all insurgents by 1 each time a civi is killed would better simulate the rising anger gets.

I think you missed my point entirely. To the gamer who knows everything about the "civilians" has every reason to go ahead and shoot them. They have no reason to keep them alive, what's the incentive? Why should they care? Even if you decrease insurgent spawn time nobody will really care. If you punish the offender with a higher spawn time it will eventually reach a point where it is faster to just disconnect and reconnect which people already do when the timer is above 90 seconds. The only real incentive is ticket reduction however even them that never really stops people as evidenced by the blatant wasting of helicopters. My suggestion is to remove the civilian class as it is far from realistic and since this a game with known rules and known intentions and known capabilities the player has every incentive to just kill them anyway.

[Redamare]

BECAUSE ITS FUN!!!! jk lol

[Alex6714]

Civilians get shot because:

1) Most of the time its hard to tell the difference.

2) They aren´t civilians, they are collaborators telling the enemy where you are and calling in mortars.

3) It doesn´t matter.

[Zrix]

"People do not hold fire long enough to correctly ID targets by their actions and game-play"
in combination with not knowing about civvies is the main reason IMO.

[MossadsKampf]

1.) People dont identify their targets.
2.) People dont care(example below).
3.) People are to far away to tell between Civi or Tango.
4.) Penalties are to light.

I was playing on Al Basrah on the great TG server (=D) and I was a civilian scouting out and reporting enemy positions. I noticed the chopper come in and drop a squad off near my AO(area of operations) towards the northern part of the main town near the mosque. As I was running from them I climbed up on the gas station using my rope and then quickyly collecting it before they could climb up after me. Not even taking the chance to see if they had one(a rope that is) or trying to make sure I didn't run down the other side 3 of 6 men engaged me and killed me. I think the penalties should apply to the whole team as far as that goes. For example everyone on the team loses points, tickets are taken away, all death timers increased, and kit restriction for a certain amount of time for the individual/s that engaged and killed the civi. I know we all hate tangos but when you kill a civi in the game blatantly thats just weak. You get a warning when you shoot a civi anyway I think.

[cyberzomby]

Personally I think maybe only a really severe penalty could get most people to not shoot them. But its gonna be difficult. Its a FPS and in not that many FPS's did you not shoot at something other than your team-mate. Counter Strike:Hostage rescue is the only one I can think of right now. And those where just some bots standing there.

We're talking smart, moving players here that are in the enemy's team. I dont think we can implement anything that will keep everyone (or most of the team) from killing them. Nature of the game/beast.

[Mj Pain]

Yes, it`s FPS game but i tend to play it more as RPG (rollplayinggame)when it comes to playing against insurgents and civilians. I shoot civvies when i´m surprised in closequatercombat or when i´m gunning in armour from long distances (guns don´t draw). I´m always like..Damn,i´m gonna get courtmartialed

[cyberzomby]

haha I know the feeling. When I play insurgent as army side I feel like that 2. I always take out my binocs to at least ID that long distance contact.

[Cobhris]

Let's see: They're giving away your position, they're throwing rocks at you, they support insurgent forces, and it's too much trouble to run them down and arrest them.

[PBEnthusiast]

how just make it so when you kill them you get the extra respawn time like you do after you kill a teammate because they are basically on your team besides them helping the other team lol.

[Solid Knight]

how just make it so when you kill them you get the extra respawn time like you do after you kill a teammate because they are basically on your team besides them helping the other team lol.

If you make the respawn too high then people will just disconnect and reconnect to get around it.

[Truism]

Penalties are not harsh enough.
Penalties for collaborators dieing are well known and much harsher than those for killing them (it is beneficial for your team if you shoot one).
Collaborators are unable to adequately defend themselves given these two factors.

Civilians and collaborators should be seperate classes. Collaborators should get everything they have now, including rediculous spawn times for any deaths at all, as well as a pistol and a few mags.

Civilians should get the old spawning rules and punishments, and the equipment Collaborators get now. Shooting them in the water or on ladders is illegal, as is running them over. They are unable to use vehicles at all. A ticket punishment for killing them would be desirable if harsher spawn rules are kept, otherwise the same punishment for killing them as collaborators yield currently, and very lenient spawn rules (old school rules).


It is naive and optimistic to the nth degree to assume that there are not civilians who by civil means (like rioting with rocks) can disrupt Coalition operations and want to/do do. It is also naive to the nth degree to assume that every civilian who wants to see the coalition out of their country is a collaborator. It is also very culturally blind to assume that no muslim civilian fanatics want to get themselves killed to hurt the coalition cause.

Additionally, playing as an old school civi was a lot of fun, something insurgents desperately lack at the moment.

[Jedimushroom]

I keep reading over and over again that spawn times should be increased for collaborators in order to reduce noobiness.

Have any of you even played collaborator? The spawn time is like two minutes! It's higher than the penalty time for killing a civilian, I mean what is this rubbish?

The problem is a lack of discipline, brought on by a lack of proper severe punishment for killing a civvie. People will always run in there and shoot randomly until they face consequences for their actions.

[Truism]

There are no civilians in PR..
If anyone in RL did what the so called "civies" do in PR, they whoud be shot on the spot..

I'm pretty sure throwing rocks doesn't abridge the rights of a civilian in the various conventions on human rights and the rules of war. Likewise, the Insurgent army is drawn from a civilian population. It's not a question of individual civilians individually reporting to Evil Terrorist Henchment types, it's more like information that the civilian population knows, the Insurgent forces know. That's not justification for shooting a civilian.

Other civilians are coerced, or forced into giving some forms of aid to anti-coalition forces, like greater mobility (into their houses etc). This is also not justification for shooting them.

I think you drastically misunderstand the nature of insurgent warefare. It's not exactly as though I've ever been to Iraq, but I did do a course on the rules of warfare, I read fairly widely, and simple logic says that while some large scale counter-insurgency operations are fought with minimal civilian presence (like Fallujah and rural operations in Afghanistand/Pakistan), the majority of day to day counter-insurgency operations still happen in urban areas, with large civilian populations who may not be friendly towards the Coalition for civil reasons. In reality, a few rocks being thrown by demonstrators against what they see as occupation will slow an operation down, but won't stop it like some militants with AKs, or an IED ambush. Likewise actual Collaborators are unlikely to walk around without some kind of a concealed weapon - that's just dumb.

There are plenty of precedents for civilians throwing rocks in insurgencies. Israel-Palestine is an example. These civilians didn't forfeit their right to live, and were still protected by international law. Suggesting that they did is sick and barbaric. Israeli soldiers who were shown to have murdered them were trialled and in many cases, severely reprimanded. Israel is a different place to Iraq - killing a civilian doesn't cost the IDF or their government much at all in terms of the operation, because they aren't accountable to the international community. US Marines stepping out of line attract the ire of the whole world, including members of the Coalition. Individual stuff ups like the executions in Fallujah, the torture in Abu Ghraib and civilian casualty figures actually actively damage the ability of the US led coalition to continue to counter the insurgency by burning the political capital in those other member nations to contribute troops or supplies - that is what a ticket penalty would represent.


Misconceptions:
There are no civilians in Insurgency AOs.

Civilians who are against the coalition are valid targets.

Civilians who act against the coalition are actively insurgents.

Civilian knowledge going to the Insurgency constitutes Collaboration.

There are no consequences for killing civilians in real life, either for the individual soldier, the operation, or the ongoing campaign.

[CAS_117]

The problem is a lack of discipline, brought on by a lack of proper severe punishment for killing a civvie. People will always run in there and shoot randomly until they face consequences for their actions.

You are implying that there are civilians in Project Reality. There are only 2 sides, and until we find a way around that, we can't have civilians who behave the way they really do in reality. Calling in mortar strikes is where I start to draw the line at "non-combatant".

[red.murder1]

I think that when someone kills a civ they should show up on the insurgents minimap and get a small punishment