Helicopters needs an overhaul

[dunkellic]

Logitec G7?

mx518

[Zepheris Casull]

M.0.D: the thing though, is that with joystick you don't need a smaller sensitivity at all. Since the joystick registers the degree of movement you do to the stick it can do either a slight minor trim movement by moving the stick slightly off center or hard bank by slamming it hard to one side.

If someone happens to be able to use the mouse and micromanage the mouse resolution on the fly during flight and he is used to it for flight, then that works for him then, but again like i mentioned before, after playing for one year i tend to notice the ppl in aussie servers who are relatively good with the choppers and more often than not they use joysticks.

The mouse and keyboard were very good with hovering and it was easy enough to flag capture jumping from one flag to the other, but like i said, i consistently find that they are not as brazen with their maneuvre, this in particular was apparent to me in maps like kubra dam where a lot of the pilots in the servers like IGN server here in aussie does all sorts of crazy stunt flight with the cobra flying zipping around gaps barely wide enough to contain the chopper and ultra low flight at max cruising speed.

[M.0.D]

if i move the mouse slowly, my chopper reacts slowly.. if i move my mouse fast, my chopper reacts fast.. its that easy I do not have to manage my mouse resolution.

Anyway.. I'll have to find someone with MSFS and try this out ^^

edit: And i never said you NEED the smaller sensitivity.. i play at a sensitivity where my friends wonder, that i can still controll this thing, but you said you need a high sensitivity for the mouse - i wanted to say, you need it more for the joystick than for the mouse

[Zepheris Casull]

i never said u need high sensitivity, i said that mouse can emulate it with correct sensitivity. What i wondered though is like i asked before, can you recover from a hard maneuvre with a mouse and keyboard or worse still, recover from an unintended maneuvre easily with mouse and keyboard? Because i suspect this is why most of them are more reserved from what i can observe.

[M.0.D]

I have no problem doing this.. when I tried with a joystick i crashed into the ground ^^

I never missed anything when recovering from manouvres with my mouse, and it usually does not cost me much time or extreme luck to survive ^^

[5m0oth_0p3r4t0r]

I have no problem doing this.. when I tried with a joystick i crashed into the ground ^^

I never missed anything when recovering from manouvres with my mouse, and it usually does not cost me much time or extreme luck to survive ^^

well, are you now talking about flying a "real" simulator on high reality settings.. or flying in BF2??
Flying in BF2 is designed to be quite doable with a mouse.. and so it's not at all hard.. I've done it myself when playing on a friends computer.. it takes like 2 min to learn, but, that is not realistic though..

if you fly a realistic simulator with a good coupling between torque and rudder.. transitional lift and other realistic effects..
and you try to do a NOE flight at 100 MPH without gaining or loosing altitude when making sharp turns, really "hugging" the ground..
you would see that it is in no way similar to what you experience in game.. and it would be freaking imposible to pull of with mouse/keyboard..
or you would at least need a LOT more time to learn how to do it than what it took me in BF2 (using mouse/keyboard)..
I've spent countless hours flying flightsims since FSW95, going on with helicopters from FS98, MSFS2000, MSFS2002 and now MSFS2004..
my skills with a joystick are quite good.. but that dosn't translate to me being able to learn how to fly realy difficult manouevres with a mouse within like 2-5 min.. any simulation that lets you do that.. is a realy poor simulation..

And, being GAY for helicopters as I am, I would like to see as nice a simulation in game as posible..

[dunkellic]

zepheris, you are aware of the fact that if you move your mouse fast into one direction the mouse (on the screen) will move a larger distance than moving it slowly (mouse accleration)

[M.0.D]

well, are you now talking about flying a "real" simulator on high reality settings.. or flying in BF2??
Flying in BF2 is designed to be quite doable with a mouse.. and so it's not at all hard.. I've done it myself when playing on a friends computer.. it takes like 2 min to learn, but, that is not realistic though..

I never played a simulator (and i do not consider BF2 as one, it is a shooter, so no need for the "real" ^^).
I will try one, but i can not do this in 2 days ^^.

As you said, beeing abled to controll the helicopter takes a few minutes - beeing abled to do more, requires some more practice, but anyway, I am NOT abled to controll an helicopter properly with a joystick in BF2. So i will stick to mouse in bf2.

However, I'll let you know what i think about flying in a simulator with the mouse ^^

[5m0oth_0p3r4t0r]

I never played a simulator (and i do not consider BF2 as one, it is a shooter, so no need for the "real" ^^).

As you said, beeing abled to controll the helicopter takes a few minutes - beeing abled to do more, requires some more practice,

well, if that's your take on need for the "real", why not stick to vBF2??

and, control of the helicopter was, in my case, instant (OK, I had to change the mouse settings once, but..) and doing more, like things that take say 35-40+ hours in a flightsim, could be done within 2-5 min..

[M.0.D]

You do not have to claim BF2 as a "false" Simulation, because its a shooter. And i do not stick to vBF2 because i like more realistic shooters ^^

And sure, if you are used to fly helicopters in flight simulation, the helicopter in BF2 should be really easy to controll for you. I needed some more time for difficult manouvres.

As said i will try to fly an helicopter in a simulator with high reality settings with mouse+keyboard and with mouse+X52-throttel and with X52. I will tell you with what i come along best ^^

[5m0oth_0p3r4t0r]

You do not have to claim BF2 as a "false" Simulation, because its a shooter. And i do not stick to vBF2 because i like more realistic shooters ^^

And sure, if you are used to fly helicopters in flight simulation, the helicopter in BF2 should be really easy to controll for you.

Well, say it’s a shooter and, like, only the shooting part should be accurate.. why??
PR is more of a battle simulator than anything I’ve ever seen.. it makes no sense to exclude certain parts from the realism..

And, NO, it’s not very easy for me to fly the helicopters in BF2, I fly with a lot more control in MSFS2002 (my favourite sim..). or, it's easy, but I think it should be a lot different..

Now, I have installed the mod and played it a bit.. first off, a big WOW to the LB model (visuals) DICE should just buy it off you guys and include it in the vBF2..
BUT, and this is a big but as it is mine, I have to concur with previous posters that the flight model is lacking. Like previously mentioned there is far too much LAG between torque input and actual effect. I kept bobbing in and out of water like crazy when trying to settle a hover from a height. Granted it only carries a single 425 SHP (maximum)engine it still has a rate of climb of like 8-10m/sec. (depending on model) so there should be less, almost no, time delay.
And, not sure, but the rotor (seeing as it is a 5-blade) should be rated to about 3-3,5g.. so pulling hard decelerations should be no problem.

One thing I found improved, over the cobra and others, is it was almost more difficult to bring the helicopter into auto-hover (you know when you can let go of the stick and the helicopter just sits there in the air). And it does fly a little less like on auto-pilot, forcing you to “stay on top” a bit more. This is however due to something that feels like a viscous wobble, not sure what is causing this feel..?
It still has “auto-rudder” (not sure if BF2 allows you to take it away) which I’m of course objecting to.

Also, though it is the same in vBF2, the cruise speed is a bit on the low side.. this is perhaps a “scaling” due to map-size but.. I still would like more “oomph”..

REALLY nice model and skin though.. can’t be said enough..

[LeftSkidLow]

Im training in real helicopters, a 300c, and of course Bf2 and PRMM fly like ****. I bet there are some other pilots lurking on here that have alot more time than me though, but since I dont see any of their input yet I'll shoot. Some of the things people have said in this thread are completly bogus! Of course a Blackhawk and Littlebird respond about the same, they are both fully articulated rotor heads and pretty any fully articulated system will be just as responsive, but don't get that conused with agility. Also about the speed, an O/M/A H-6 is just a McDonnel Douglas/Hughes MD 500D and on a good day probably cruises between 120 and 130 knots.

Desert Combat did an OK job with the littlebird, I wouldnt really compare it to the real thing, but it is leaps and bounds beyond the BF2 flight model. My main beef with the flying in BF2, is that it feels like the helicopters are pivoting about a pendulam that is 100ft above the rotor disk, wtf is that about? Make them pivot about the rotor disc, make them much more responsive, and a little quicker and that will be good enough. No more of holding the stick full left for 2 seconds to get a turn going. In the real deal you barely see the cyclic movments they are so small.

[Zepheris Casull]

LeftSkidLow: i don't think anyone would confuse the BF2 flight behaviour model with a real one. Nvm flight model, the ground vehicle's physics isn't even close, but we can live with that as a gamer.

dunkellic: yeah i know, just that trying to recover a cobra from thoose kind of stunt maneuvre feels like balancing yourself on top of a giant beach ball using mouse and keyboard for me, i see few ppl profficient with the control using mouse and keyboard here in aussie servers so if there's someone that can control it with mouse and keyboard like M.0.D then i will take note of that for future reference.

[5m0oth_0p3r4t0r]

Of course a Blackhawk and Littlebird respond about the same, they are both fully articulated rotor heads and pretty any fully articulated system will be just as responsive, but don't get that conused with agility. Also about the speed, an O/M/A H-6 is just a McDonnel Douglas/Hughes MD 500D and on a good day probably cruises between 120 and 130 knots.

well, there is the small question of weight.. a little bird has a MTOW of like 1.600 kg.. a Black Hawk almost 10.000.. responsiveness will be impacted a bit by that fact..
And for instance, as flapping-hinge relations varry, so does responsiveness.. this is often an advantage for helicopters with greater rotor diametres.. but an advantage as they get a little less responsive, meaning less affected by gusts, which is a plus+..

cruising at 130knots = 240kmh, but its pretty darn hard to get the LB over 190/200kmh in level flight.. I’d say we’re about 20% short then..
Also. The OH-6 can be other models than the 500D, like the 530F for instance, the 650-shp of this machines engine allows for higher cruise speeds and more lift.. it will not compare to standard 278/375/425-shp models..

Moreover, as we’re talking about near future (“dreaming&#8221 , I would like to see the EC 635 with the new 5-blade ATR (Advanced Technology Rotor) incorporating active flaps and with a Fenestron. As it is a BMR (Bearingless Main Rotor) system it will perform on levels not capable by the MD500D/530F. MD900 Explorer (with 5-blade BMR)is also no competition.

[LeftSkidLow]

When I say response, I mean like if you were in a cruise in a MD500 or a blackhawk, and you apply .5m left cyclic, they are going to roll left about the same amount of degrees in the same amount of time, probably not exact, but beyond what a human is going to notice. Now if you did it in a Jetranger vs a MD500, you would feel that delay. Im not talking about one being more maneuverable than the other, because obviously weight would play a big factor there. Center of gravity might come into play also, but lets just keep it simple.

I dont know what MD500 the one in the game is modelled after, but it looks like a low skid 500D. Would the military variant based off the 530F or 500E models have the pointed nose, or is this a civilian thing only? I have no idea. Anyway they just need to go fast enough in the mod so that we actually feel some speed.

I think another problem is the zoom they put on the cockpit, it feels like a .25 zoom, fish-eye style. No wonder people are having problems with their approaches.

As far as our dream helicopters for the mod, I say OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. We see tons of pictures of them from Iraq, they are really putting some time on those ships over there, would be realistic to have it.

[5m0oth_0p3r4t0r]

As far as our dream helicopters for the mod, I say OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. We see tons of pictures of them from Iraq, they are really putting some time on those ships over there, would be realistic to have it.

well, I’m personally not a fan of the Kiowa, but for realism with the US-forces, OK..
and as luck would have it, for you Skid, it seems to be one of the next models added.. (check the media section..)

[TJ-A-]

Back to topic guys; will the "slightly odd handeling" of the MH6 be fixed??

sincerely
TJ

[LeftSkidLow]

I think a big amplifier of the poor flight model is how the field of view or zoom in the OH-6 cocpit is set way back like a fish eye. It makes everyone undershoot their approaches, overcorrect, mis-judge distance, altitude and speed. I said this in another thread, so I'm just saying it everywhere hoping the devs will see it.

[TJ-A-]

I think a big amplifier of the poor flight model is how the field of view or zoom in the OH-6 cocpit is set way back like a fish eye. It makes everyone undershoot their approaches, overcorrect, mis-judge distance, altitude and speed. I said this in another thread, so I'm just saying it everywhere hoping the devs will see it.

hm..... is it THAT simple? What about the "bunnyjumping" before takeoff? Even if I do not touch the stick, the helo keeps jumping up and down just before takeoff when you spin up the engines....

TJ

[Malik]

The Little Bird acts very oddly if you put the throttle into full reverse. For most choppers when you do that on the land pad you stay fixed to the ground, when you do it with the Little Bird you start flipping out everywhere. Also, full reverse is normally good for descending with all choppers, but when you do it with the Little Bird you just fall into some crazy nose dive...