PR Tank Fire Control System and Helo Missile Systems

[Feriluce]

Yea, atm if you're gunning a chopper you cannot reliably hit a stationary target unless the chopper is flying completely straight or hovering perfectly still. Small adjustments from the pilot's side and you cant hit anything. Same goes for tanks, have to be driving on very flat surface or standing completely still to hit anything thats not right in front of you.

[Kirra]

Could always use this for choppers and leave tanks as they are...

[Farks]

leave tanks as they are...

Again, for what reason? It's a realism feature that fits in a realism mod. It's far from gonna take away the skill element in armored warfare.

[crazy11]

It is going to add skill if you ask me.

You actually need to use tactics to survive because if you are out in the open, you are as good as dead.

[DeltaFart]

Here's about the summary of this
It adds realism to the game that wasn't there before, the top attack missiles(not sure if it is real tell the truth, only aware of Javelin doing this someone needs to tell me if Im wrong) makes the Apache helos more deadly and allows for helos to use a different tactic
The locking onto a a good idea since all modern tanks(after the M1) has a stabilised gun and this simulates that. While the tracking of the projectile isn't, I think its kind of silly but what ever

[Farks]

It is going to add skill if you ask me.

You actually need to use tactics to survive because if you are out in the open, you are as good as dead.

This is what I was trying to say. Thank you for summrazing it for me!

The locking onto a a good idea since all modern tanks(after the M1) has a stabilised gun and this simulates that. While the tracking of the projectile isn't, I think its kind of silly but what ever

Actully, modern armor have stabilized turrets and TFC which can lock the gun on targets. The wonders of modern technology...

[CAS_117]

The locking onto a a good idea since all modern tanks(after the M1) has a stabilised gun and this simulates that. While the tracking of the projectile isn't, I think its kind of silly but what ever

I don't think you actually know how the system works. And I am too tired to explain it.

[DeltaFart]

Here's what I think it is:
Gunner tracks a target, turret is told to turn and elevate to keep the gun in that spot in space where the target is generally at, so if Im going 40mph down a road and the target appears at 340 degress to my front, unless its going in my direction or crossing my front, the gun will keep on that target so the turret will be moving to the rear keep track on the target
Now farks I said since the M1 as far as I know no tank has had a system as good as that abrams did when it first came out. I didnt say tanks dont have it. ANything prior to the abrams I asusme(since most american tanks have been WW2 based can't vouch for the russians) haven't had a gun you can shoot at 40mph

[CAS_117]

Here's what I think it is:
Gunner tracks a target, turret is told to turn and elevate to keep the gun in that spot in space where the target is generally at, so if Im going 40mph down a road and the target appears at 340 degress to my front, unless its going in my direction or crossing my front, the gun will keep on that target so the turret will be moving to the rear keep track on the target

um no I don't think so.

[$kelet0r]

I don't think you actually know how the system works. And I am too tired to explain it.

Allow me.

Modern tanks do not 'lock on' in any way to a target - in many ways they are still very primitive weapons. Gun on tracks. Fire control systems use straightforward trigonometry to compute target solutions. The laser rangefinder measures distance from (x,0,0) to target and raises the barrel to hit the target using known projectile ranges. If the target is moving, the laser rangefinder when held on the target for a second or two will measure the velocity of that target at each range returned and the rate that velocity is changing - then calculates the angle between target at T=0 and T=target and projectile meet at that range in the future and moves the barrel to the appropriate vector turning turret at the same rate of angular change as the target data returned. Which means the target could stop dead but without gunner input, the turret will keep using the old data and continue doing whatever it was told to do when the gunner stopped actively lasing...

So Cas' work is impressive but would have to implemented very carefully if it was made for PR because it is not realistic or even approximately realistic to the real FCS - only an imitation of what actually happens

[crazy11]

Once you guys try it out then say whether its good or not.

[DeltaFart]

Allow me.

Modern tanks do not 'lock on' in any way to a target - in many ways they are still very primitive weapons. Gun on tracks. Fire control systems use straightforward trigonometry to compute target solutions. The laser rangefinder measures distance from (x,0,0) to target and raises the barrel to hit the target using known projectile ranges. If the target is moving, the laser rangefinder when held on the target for a second or two will measure the velocity of that target at each range returned and the rate that velocity is changing - then calculates the angle between target at T=0 and T=target and projectile meet at that range in the future and moves the barrel to the appropriate vector turning turret at the same rate of angular change as the target data returned. Which means the target could stop dead but without gunner input, the turret will keep using the old data and continue doing whatever it was told to do when the gunner stopped actively lasing...

So Cas' work is impressive but would have to implemented very carefully if it was made for PR because it is not realistic or even approximately realistic to the real FCS - only an imitation of what actually happens

Ah ok thanks, that helps alot actually, I figured it had to do something like that

[Mora]

Well there are engine limitations and this is the best we can think of atm.

[xatu miller]

Here's about the summary of this
(not sure if it is real tell the truth, only aware of Javelin doing this someone needs to tell me if Im wrong)

Yes the hellfire does that to. Each missle is programmed to take "Higher Path" so it can hit the designated target from the top(meant for tanks because top armor is weaker). It can't be turned off as far as i know.

Once you guys try it out then say whether its good or not.

We tried it out in a small 2vs2 tank fight. Worked without a problem, IMO it was much more harder and required more tactics as like said before: in the open you are as good as dead, and of course , it felt more realistic.

[CAS_117]

Guy's this is a representation of a fire control system. We didn't program the turret or ballistics data or anything. That only works on 2142. Sorry but its not gonna get much closer for BF2.

[PlatinumA1]

Speculation about the "FCS" that CAS and Alex have made being "Unrealistic" SHOULD stop until you try it out yourself. The video he uploaded on youtube was made 1 month ago, many adjustments have been made. Your not going to find a real targeting system for tanks in bf2, so be happy for what you have.

[Human_001]

Any real Tank crew here? I'm interested in how real modern tank like M1 targeting system works. Now I think most of close details are classified so just general thing will be good. I have no idea how it works.
Also how tanks like T72 or T90(1 or 2 generation before) targeting system are different? Anyone know?

[Sparatan117]

Allow me.

Modern tanks do not 'lock on' in any way to a target - in many ways they are still very primitive weapons. Gun on tracks. Fire control systems use straightforward trigonometry to compute target solutions. The laser rangefinder measures distance from (x,0,0) to target and raises the barrel to hit the target using known projectile ranges. If the target is moving, the laser rangefinder when held on the target for a second or two will measure the velocity of that target at each range returned and the rate that velocity is changing - then calculates the angle between target at T=0 and T=target and projectile meet at that range in the future and moves the barrel to the appropriate vector turning turret at the same rate of angular change as the target data returned. Which means the target could stop dead but without gunner input, the turret will keep using the old data and continue doing whatever it was told to do when the gunner stopped actively lasing...

Impressive. Although that was the Abrams M1A1 Main Battle Tank. We now have the M1A2 with thermal sights and GPS tracking along with GPS guided shells if chosen for ordinance. And yes, the tracking system realizes that the target its looking at is whatever type it may be and "locks on" therefore holding the barrel on target even at 55mph over hills and bumps. (my good friend is a Tank-er)

I must say though, what are you a tank commander to know that?

[$kelet0r]

Impressive. Although that was the Abrams M1A1 Main Battle Tank. We now have the M1A2 with thermal sights and GPS tracking along with GPS guided shells if chosen for ordinance. And yes, the tracking system realizes that the target its looking at is whatever type it may be and "locks on" therefore holding the barrel on target even at 55mph over hills and bumps. (my good friend is a Tank-er)

With due respect to a serving man but I would put my neck out and say that your information is wrong.
There is no known gps in service that could survive being shot out of a cannon - hence the hoopla over America's xcaliber shell artillery project. GPS will measure your position in space and with the aid of a laser rangefinder definitely aids target solutions but on its own will do nothing - the aim of GPS is primarily navigation and Blufor tracking. Unless M1A2s have GPS devices already in the enemy tanks and access to that data! Add that to the main problem...time lag in GPS data - it is not instantaneous or even close.

Additionally the thermal image of a target can certainly be identified by computer using known heat blooms, shape, image recognition software etc. as to what it is but thermal imaging is a passive system and while it can track a moving heat source, it cannot compute a good firing solution alone because it physically cannot measure range in any way accurately with heat energy detected (there is no feedback from your position to the target - thermal energy emitted goes one of 2 ways - towards you ... or not) or angular motion (because heat bloom is not a constant - the 'centre of heat' does not move consistently when the target moves because of smoke, exhaust, changes in air density, the profile of the target changing etc.)

So even in the 21st century, firing the main gun accurately on an MBT is still trigonometry using a rangefinder - either with a laser rangefinder or the old fashioned way using the chevrons on the secondary gunner's sight. The M1A2's advantages are a combination of the above - intel (superior thermal sights) and navigation (gps) and excelent fcs (very fast computer system). But each component still does a seperate job (with minor overlap).
I am of course open to correction...I wouldn't dare question your knowledge of the Apache though!

[Charity Case]

Cool videos, I have 2 questions about the in-game FCS.

1) Will it allow a tank to more easily track and hit targets when the tank is moving?
2) How much precision is lost by using this system? Will gunners still be able to target specific parts of a vehicle (e.g. turrets or treads)? Will FCS guided shells be able to hit targets that are hull down?