Let's follow TacticalGamer's example - make being in a squad mandatory!

[hx.bjoffe]

It has it's ups and it has it's downs, and i like it as it is now, some servers run the script some don't. I play both types.
I don't agree to forcing it on every server, and i don't think it neccessarily makes the newcomers automaticaly more team-oriented.
Let's leave some color in the world.

[Deadfast]

I don't think it should be 'forced' for all servers.

Not that TG wouldn't be a nice server (I play there often) but automatic kick for being squadless is not promoting teamplay at all.
The people who would normally lone-wolf won't miraculously change to teamplayers. They'll just join a squad and keep on soloing.
If the server admins want to have the kick there, let them, but don't force them.

[BeerHunter]

Think its a silly idea to start with. Doesn't promote team work. Only forces players into a squad.

Players wanting team work are going to squad up anyway.

There are already enough disadvantages in PRM for the lone wolf.

I played on TG's server this week end and TBH , I joined (and was subsequently kicked) from 2 squads so while trying to find a squad that :
wasn't locked
wasn't aircraft
wasn't armor

my 90 seconds expired and I had to reconnect.

Lots of servers enforce this rule , not only TG's but I see no advantage to it honestly.

[.blend]

Deadfast^Thats one problem that springs to mind, but i think good SLs would just kick them, so they would need to behave.
BUT the loners might as well just create nine closed squads with only 1-2 ppl.
Also, sometimes there just r no good squads. Often enough i join a 4-5 ppl squad just to find them all scattered all over the map with no RP set up. Or they talk french or any other language i dont get....like british english^^

But Im definitly for everything that has even the slightest chance to make ppl play PR like it was supposed to.

[fludblud]

just because people are forced to be in a squad doesnt mean they will act like a squad.

this argument is simply between those who want to choose and those who think they know whats best.
i say let them choose you bloody commies

[gazzthompson]

makes it worst, people who are forced into squad normal join squads with other noobs, a hole squad of players all spread across the map and the SL with a sniper kit. its a waste of a squad, let them get punished on the own, they should make it that u cant spawn at a firebase or drive a hummer when not in a squad..

[Masaq]

I voted NO simply because not all servers are admin'd effectively.

If you have the Auto-kick for Squad option enabled and the Squad Bug occurs, you can end up decimating the server population (and completely WRECK the game) by kicking the quarter/half/two-thirds/three-quarters of the side that can't get into the 1/2/3/4 full squads.

If ALL servers had admins on constantly, fine - force people into squads. The lone-wolves can always squad up and then completely ignore each other.

However, I *REALLY* hate being kicked from a server just because they have auto-kick enabled and can't administrate their server well.

Servers that run the Auto-kick for Squad script should turn it off whenever the last admin logs out for a night and re-enable it whenever one turns up.

Thankfully, I haven't experienced it on T&T yet

[Razick]

More squads doesnt necessarily mean they will be quality squads. Thats one of the reasons I hate commanding in TG because even though you have more squads to command doesnt mean they are led well. The ones that are led are usually residing clans or other locked squads but they are usually doing their own thing and could care less about commander orders, or the rest of the team for that matter, so thats why I hate TG but its a player base thing and another discussion entirely. Servers without the force dont have as many squads but the players that are in them want to contribute which is something you cant force. Thats why forcing fails to solve anything other than making the disorganized blue turn to into disorganized white when you select them.

[Kinote]

Forcing people to join a squad in X TIMEUNITs is one of the most moronic things around.

1) Lonewolf doesn't want to squad up? Yeah, he's sure to bring everything we're all looking for in a squadmate when we force him to join one.

2) Joined the server and waiting for your friends to load in? Better make a squad real quick and then **** around cycling SL or hope the limit hasn't been reached so he can make one when he shows up.

3) Not exactly supposed to be part of the list, but: People complaining about locked squads, I hate it. Why do you have a problem with me and my friends playing PR with each other and running an awesome squad that is actually mission effective. We don't want to play with some random pubbies, we don't want to train the noob who doesn't know how to pick up a kit, doesn't have VOIP, or can't figure out a tank barrel from the hole in his ***. Do we let people in? Of course, but we know those people quite well and know they won't **** up our plans. Crying and whining for us to let you join is a bad mark right from the start.

The poll is wonderfully misleading. Squads and teamwork are indeed hand in hand, that's all fine and good but you should not be forcing people to join within a certain amount of time for several reasons.

[Artnez[US]]

Sorry, but you guys have it all wrong here... (those that say no)

You only assume that squads will be ruined by lone wolfers but that is completely untrue. Once again TacticalGamer server is the perfect test case. Every single time I join that server there is teamwork. There have only been a few times when it took some time for things to get started but eventually teamwork begins all of the time.

When lone wolfers join a teamwork squad and don't follow the SL's orders they can easily be kicked from the squad.

--

In the ends, it's not about converting all lone wolfers to the PR way. It's about converting a large percentage of them, including newcomers.

What if someone just doesn't know? I have never read the manual for PR because I don't like reading manuals for video games... I want to play. A lot of people are like this.

If someone is lone wolfing in your squad, just kick them from it. If the lone wolfer doesnt change his ways he'll join a squad where no one cares what he does or he'll create his own squad.

In all cases, the worst case scenario is that it goes back to the way it was before... with lone wolfers doing their thing.

But by joining a good squad with good teamwork, the lone wolfers will see first hand what good teamwork is all about!

1) Lonewolf doesn't want to squad up? Yeah, he's sure to bring everything we're all looking for in a squadmate when we force him to join one.

He is, because some people just don't know and others react more to voices (VOIP). As long as you're a good squad leader, you'll get his attention.

If not, kick him from the squad. Nothing changes as far as you're concerned.

2) Joined the server and waiting for your friends to load in? Better make a squad real quick and then **** around cycling SL or hope the limit hasn't been reached so he can make one when he shows up.

Lock the squad, do an invite.

[quote=""'[R-MOD"]Masaq;607539']I voted NO simply because not all servers are admin'd effectively.

If you have the Auto-kick for Squad option enabled and the Squad Bug occurs, you can end up decimating the server population (and completely WRECK the game) by kicking the quarter/half/two-thirds/three-quarters of the side that can't get into the 1/2/3/4 full squads.

If ALL servers had admins on constantly, fine - force people into squads. The lone-wolves can always squad up and then completely ignore each other.

However, I *REALLY* hate being kicked from a server just because they have auto-kick enabled and can't administrate their server well.

Servers that run the Auto-kick for Squad script should turn it off whenever the last admin logs out for a night and re-enable it whenever one turns up.

Thankfully, I haven't experienced it on T&T yet [/quote]

A bug? Can be fixed?

[quote="Engineer""]You are right HughJass, the mod is about teamwork. But the question was about forcing people to do it.

Teamplay comes from free will of players, not from PR core files.[/quote]

Some people just don't know how to do it right. Thus good squads teach them how. Others, kick from squad

[Masaq]

3) Not exactly supposed to be part of the list, but: People complaining about locked squads, I hate it. Why do you have a problem with me and my friends playing PR with each other and running an awesome squad that is actually mission effective. We don't want to play with some random pubbies, we don't want to train the noob who doesn't know how to pick up a kit, doesn't have VOIP, or can't figure out a tank barrel from the hole in his ***. Do we let people in? Of course, but we know those people quite well and know they won't **** up our plans. Crying and whining for us to let you join is a bad mark right from the start.

Of course, the flip side of that is that as an experienced, expert-in-several-areas, communicating, effective teamplayer...

I'd rather have:

...A newbie who doesn't know how to pick up a kit...

...A mature player who can't use VOIP because his kids are in bed...

...A random pubbie dude who shows me a new tactic or is just a laugh...

...In fact, almost ANYONE who isn't an arrogant know-it-all who is only interested with playing with other selfish players who have no time for other players and who don't believe anyone else can bring anything interesting to the game...

...in *my* squad.

Of course, I'm absolutely certain that you're not like that! But you have to admit, some players who only play with their friends and who are hostile to new players and non-VOIP users can certainly come across like that - and that it looks REALLY bad for the average PR player if the community as a whole is seen by the wider BF2/General Gaming community as being a bunch of unfriendly elitist prats.


This is why I keep my squad unlocked when I've got spaces available, why I take the time to help new guys to learn, why I don't mind if two guys in my squad don't have VOIP, why I don't mind if some random has to hitch a lift out to my squad halfway through a map.

It's also why I'll happily tell other Tactics & Teamwork ([T&T]) guys when one requests a slot in a full squad - if I've got a couple in my squad already - that we're better off spreading ourselves throughout a team, and why I'll usually happily play on the opposite side to my mates in [T&T], because spreading out *our* knowledge and skills allows us to guide the rest of the game AND to learn new skills from other players. If we only played in locked, [T&T] squads all round, well - after a few months we'd start to believe we knew it all, and that'd be kidding ourselves.

Because *team* playing isn't about what goes on with *your* squad, it's what goes on with every other squad as well.

[Kinote]

Masaq;607710']Of course, the flip side of that is that as an experienced, expert-in-several-areas, communicating, effective teamplayer...

I'd rather have:

...A newbie who doesn't know how to pick up a kit...

...A mature player who can't use VOIP because his kids are in bed...

...A random pubbie dude who shows me a new tactic or is just a laugh...

...In fact, almost ANYONE who isn't an arrogant know-it-all who is only interested with playing with other selfish players who have no time for other players and who don't believe anyone else can bring anything interesting to the game...

...in *my* squad.

Of course, I'm absolutely certain that you're not like that! But you have to admit, some players who only play with their friends and who are hostile to new players and non-VOIP users can certainly come across like that - and that it looks REALLY bad for the average PR player if the community as a whole is seen by the wider BF2/General Gaming community as being a bunch of unfriendly elitist prats.

Nah, I fit into that "experienced, expert-in-several-areas, communicating, effective teamplayer" category, so good of you to notice. As far as your squad goes, you can fill it with whatever the hell you want if that is what you want to do. Leave my squad to me.

Sure, some of the locked squads fit your description of being hostile to new players and non-VOIP users, but if they play well together and are having fun, I'm not going to tell them to do anything differently.

Masaq;607710']This is why I keep my squad unlocked when I've got spaces available, why I take the time to help new guys to learn, why I don't mind if two guys in my squad don't have VOIP, why I don't mind if some random has to hitch a lift out to my squad halfway through a map.

It's also why I'll happily tell other Tactics & Teamwork ([T&T]) guys when one requests a slot in a full squad - if I've got a couple in my squad already - that we're better off spreading ourselves throughout a team, and why I'll usually happily play on the opposite side to my mates in [T&T], because spreading out *our* knowledge and skills allows us to guide the rest of the game AND to learn new skills from other players. If we only played in locked, [T&T] squads all round, well - after a few months we'd start to believe we knew it all, and that'd be kidding ourselves.

Because *team* playing isn't about what goes on with *your* squad, it's what goes on with every other squad as well.

That is absolutely fantastic that you can take time out of your day to teach new people the ropes and bask in the warm glow of random pubbies. Infact, you can do that all you want. Who the hell am I to tell you any different? I leave your squad of pubblefun alone, you leave my squad of skilled players alone, everybody wins.

A little off the mark on your point about teamwork doing nothing with any one particular squad. What goes on in MY squad directly affects what goes on everywhere else. Is my squad wandering all over the map? Hell no. Is my squad doing something useful? Absolutely. My squad destroying that incoming convoy of hostile units, capturing that flag, defending that random area, is directly helping the team. The random group of people wandering around East Bumblefuck, not so much.

Like I have said several times. If you can make it work, more power to you. I'll stick with my friends and our pubbies of honour. I still maintain that joining a squad is good, joining a squad in some abstract amount of time is not.

[Artnez[US]]

This isn't about locked squads, please stay OT.

[turnpipe]

Every body gets circumcised?
I want my foreskin back!

[Human Shield]

I don't it was made to force Rambos to join a squad, it is for that when such Rambos exist they are removed from the server to free up a space for someone else. So a policy for removing people isn't that important if the server isn't crowded all the time.

[Artnez[US]]

I don't it was made to force Rambos to join a squad, it is for that when such Rambos exist they are removed from the server to free up a space for someone else. So a policy for removing people isn't that important if the server isn't crowded all the time.

Honestly I'm not sure why it was created... the only people that can tell why they are using it are the server administrators.

What I do know is what the effects are.

The main affect is people who are new to the game are sling-shotted into squad gameplay immediately. This is very important because you can't play PR without being a squad and a lot of newcomers may not understand that (in vanilla BF2, not that many people join squads). Also a lot of players aren't used to the idea of reading a manual before playing a mod (no other mod asks you to do it).

The secondary affect is that many lone wolfers will become part of the tactics and teamwork group. A lot of these guys may have never experienced true teamwork in a squad. This will increase the chances for them to experience that.

[Ragni<RangersPL>]

[quote=""'Artnez[US"];607814']What I do know is what the effects are.

The main affect is people who are new to the game are sling-shotted into squad gameplay immediately. This is very important because you can't play PR without being a squad and a lot of newcomers may not understand that (in vanilla BF2, not that many people join squads). Also a lot of players aren't used to the idea of reading a manual before playing a mod (no other mod asks you to do it).

The secondary affect is that many lone wolfers will become part of the tactics and teamwork group. A lot of these guys may have never experienced true teamwork in a squad. This will increase the chances for them to experience that.[/quote]

I agree with that, but there are other situations you have to consider.

First one is from my previous post but it looks like you don't want to think about it at all (but it's a problem, I've seen it many times):

[quote="Ragni<RangersPL>""]Some of the squads are locked (2 players helicpter squad for example) and some of them are full. New player joins the server and he can't join any squad (locked/full) and also he can't create his own squad because of BF2 engine squad limitation. People offten type in the chat something like: "OMG FAZT, OPEN SQUADZ PLZZZZ!!! If nothing changes, 90 second will pass and POOOF! He's gone. Server is not full but he can't play.[/quote]

Second thing, already mentioned "Squad_Bug". There is only one squad available for the team and the rest of the team is squadless, you can't create new team because of that bug... the server need a restart, but what if there is no admin available?
I will tell you what will happen on fully populated server (32 Vs 32). Round starts, six lucky guys and/or girls are in the squad, remaining players from that bugged team are squadless. After XX seconds 26 players are kicked from the server for not being in the squad. Autobalance kicks in, some of the players switching sides and now you have 19 Vs 19 (overall number of players = 38 ). Maybe someone will try to rejoin, but if not, after another XX seconds another 13 players are kicked for being squadless, autobalance starts and some players are switching sides, now you have 25 (12 Vs 13) players on the server... and so on untill there will be only 12 (or 13) players left on the server, or Admins will make a restart.

That's why I think this whole idea is not so good after all.

[Artnez[US]]

First one is from my previous post but it looks like you don't want to think about it at all (but it's a problem, I've seen it many times):

I've never seen all squads being used and ALL squads were either full or locked for an extended period of time. There is a maximum of 8 squads per team I think. With 6 people per squad - 6x8 = 48. That's enough for 48 people per side... that's a 16 player offset in case people do it.

In the worst case, I've seen 2 pilot squads, 2 armor squads and 1 squad with some friends that locked it. That's 5 squads, which leaves 3 open squads of 6 people. That's enough for 18 people. If you subtract 2 people per pilot squad, 2 people per armor squad and roughly 3 people for the friend squad that's 11 people. 32 player server - 11 = 21. So the difference between 18 and 21 is only 3 and that is the worst case scenario that I've only seen once and it didn't last very long.

Second thing, already mentioned "Squad_Bug". There is only one squad available for the team and the rest of the team is squadless, you can't create new team because of that bug... the server need a restart, but what if there is no admin available?

is this a bug with PR or BF2? never seen it happen in TacticalGamer